The Waiting: PGIM’s Cathy Marcus on when and where capital will find opportunity

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Spencer Levy
The city of Newark, New Jersey is also known as Brick City, a reference to its large number of brick housing developments. It's a city with deep, if unheralded traditions in food, pop culture and more. And a place now in the midst of revitalization, which a company founded there nearly 150 years ago is helping to foster. We traveled to Brick City to visit that company in one of the relatively new steel and glass towers of Newark's downtown business district to meet up with an experienced and influential executive who's been making her mark in real estate for over three decades. On this episode, one of the top women in commercial real estate shares her perspective on the wider world and the strategic thinking that's made her company one of the leading global asset managers around. 

Cathy Marcus
We have so much breadth and so many different options that it's not like we're changing our investment strategies every day. We are absolutely local investors and we invest in different markets based on what is the best risk adjusted returns in those markets. 

Spencer Levy
That's Cathy Marcus, Global Chief Operating Officer and Head of US Equity for PGIM Real Estate, the real estate investment management business of Prudential Financial. PGIM Real Estate manages around $210 billion worth of assets, including debt and equity interests, across a variety of product types and asset classes; primarily in The US, Asia, Europe, and Latin America. Coming up, a trip to the headquarters of PGIM Real Estate in Newark, New Jersey, and the sweeping insights of an accomplished leader. A conversation with Cathy Marcus on her firm's global portfolio and the state of play in today's market. I'm Spencer Levy. And that's right now on The Weekly Take. 

Spencer Levy
Welcome to The Weekly Take. Cathy, thank you so much for coming out today. 

Cathy Marcus
It's a pleasure. 

Spencer Levy
So let's talk about the market. And I think it's fair to say we're in a very unusual market. There's no such thing as a usual market, I suppose. But this one is particularly unusual. What do you see happening in the market today, and how's PGIM handling it? 

Cathy Marcus
Well, not a lot. That's what's going on in the market these days. Not a lot. In my 35 years in this business, I've never experienced anything like this. Where everyone is very busy doing nothing. And that is kind of how it feels. And so we are, like everyone else, really waiting for repricing. I would say that the repricing is a bit more advanced in certain parts of Europe, and particularly the UK. And the US is definitely a laggard in terms of the repricing. And until the market really reprices, we don't expect to see a lot of inflows of capital into our products. We are continuing to transact and I would say, and certainly, you know this more than most at CBRE, that disposition levels have picked up. And I would say that's the past couple months where we're really seeing that happening from an acquisition perspective. We're acquiring far less around the globe than we did over the past couple years, clearly, and would not surprise me if we were net sellers this year globally. 

Spencer Levy
From a historic perspective, how do you see today compared to the past and where do you think we're going? 

Cathy Marcus
To me, this is totally different. I don't think that it bears any resemblance to the savings and loan crisis or to the global financial crisis in that one of the main differences between the market that we're in right now and both of those situations is that generally, with the possible exception of very commodity office, generally fundamentals are not bad In our industry. And in some sectors, the fundamentals are actually quite good. And in our portfolios we're seeing NOIs up year over year, certainly in multifamily, certainly in industrial and even now more recently in retail. That was not the case during, I remember during The S&L Crisis, everyone would talk about the see-through buildings and all the supply that had come on. And there was unconstrained supply where literally there were buildings that were see-through because there was nobody in them. And you just don't see that as much now. And I think it's because the capital markets have a little bit more of a governor on them, if you will, than they did in those days in terms of the spigot for construction financing gets turned off a lot more quickly than it used to be. So compared to The S&L Crisis, I see this very different because of the supply and because of the fundamentals. When I think about The Global Financial Crisis, that was a very steep and traumatic fall from where we were. But it happened, It happened very quickly. That value's corrected and the entire world sort of changed, whereas during this period of time, it hasn't been quick and it hasn't been a universal recession. You know, lots and lots of issues with the job market. I mean, it's just so different in that way and that what we're seeing is really what you might consider to be a real estate recession. Now, you’re the research person, but a real estate recession, that is not happening at the same time as an overall economic recession. And that's, I think, to me is the main difference and why it's very difficult to really predict what's going to happen here and how long it's going to take for this repricing because I at least have never experienced a repricing that is actually, I think from start to finish, the exercise is going to be measured in years, not quarters. 

Spencer Levy
How is it impacting your strategies today and how do you think it may impact you in the years to come? 

Cathy Marcus
So our strategies are very varied around the globe and varied by risk levels between core, core plus, value add, varied by where we are in the capital stack, varied by sector, varied by as a development, are we buying existing. We have so much breadth and so many different options that it's not like we're changing our investment strategies every day. We are absolutely local investors and we invest in different markets based on what is the best risk adjusted return in those markets. So as an example, in Mexico, we're almost 100% industrial because that's where we think the best risk adjusted returns are. But if you look in France, we're a little bit more Paris office oriented because that's where we see opportunity there to take older assets and bring them up to current ESG requirements. And so really, I wouldn't say that we're like every day adjusting our investment strategy based on the current environment. And clearly it is one of the benefits of being a large, very diverse, global investor in that right now, I think most people would say in most markets, clearly in The US, that debt offers the best risk adjusted returns. And so we're able to play in the debt space right now versus the equity space. So I think that that is one of the benefits of being a large global manager with all different buckets of capital; that you have capital for pretty much every good investment strategy that exists. 

Spencer Levy
One of the significant changes we're seeing is in the nature of the bidder. So less institutions like PGIM, more high net worth individuals and sovereigns; people that are able to look at real estate more from a longer term basis than many institutions. And the other thing we're seeing is that some of the assets that are being disposed of and as a whole, we can go through all different types. Some people are beginning to use techniques like seller financing. What are you seeing, Cathy? 

Cathy Marcus
I think it's exactly what we're seeing. And some of the high net worth country club friends and family kind of money that we're seeing buying some of our assets, it’s because they don't need leverage or they can wait to put leverage on a year or two years, whatever. And interestingly, I'd say one of the trends that I find interesting is we've been selling some retail and mostly grocery anchor centers, and it used to be you would accumulate a bunch of them and sell them together in order to get the portfolio effect. And now you're getting better pricing, selling these individual assets $35 to $50 million, whereas that was the opposite, where you did much better. You put together ten or 12 Publix anchored centers and you definitely got better pricing, whereas now it's the individual smaller bite size. And I think it's really, very much about the leverage. 

Spencer Levy
I agree with that completely for two reasons: Number one, I’ll admit this on the air. I get a lot of things wrong. One thing I got right was I called retail's recovery years ago and I said, this is oversold. And now we are clearly seeing it in the fundamentals where the leasing volume, the rents are at or above record levels. Even things like the Bed, Bath, Beyond bankruptcy was not viewed negatively by much of the industry because they needed the space. But the other thing that you just mentioned, Cathy, about the availability of financing is absolutely correct. But also what you didn't say is that you can get positive leverage on retail and hotels, I might add. You can't get that in other asset classes.

Cathy Marcus
Right. Right. I think that's definitely part of it as well. And we play less in the hotel space, actually, much to my chagrin. I happen to like hotels, but just isn't a space that we're very active in right now. But on the retail side, definitely you're seeing I mean, it's pretty close in terms of positive leverage. It's just by a hair, but you can achieve that. 

Spencer Levy
Some people don't consider hotels real estate because it's more of an operating business than anything else. At the same time, some of the most popular asset classes today, I would also classify them as OpRe – operational real estate, and that would include data centers, single family rental, self-storage, senior housing, student housing, maybe not quite as much self-storage. And by the way, Cathy, you're hardly alone in our large institutional clients who won't do hotels. But you think if you lumped them together with some of these other popular asset classes, people might take a second look? 

Cathy Marcus
I think so, maybe. I do think that there are some people who are just allergic to the operating leverage that you see in some of those asset types. And if you're really defining the operating model by labor, that's one way. But another way is just expertise. Do you need operational expertise? And then I would put self-storage in that category. I would put manufactured housing in that category, and those are super popular. And for us at PGIM Real Estate, we've been investing in those, quote, niche alternative type classes for quite some time. In fact, self-storage, we really started investing in the late 90s. To me, there certainly, one needs operating expertise and you should not forget that and you should approach the investment in that way. But at the end of the day, to the question of what is real estate, there was a time when real estate was three major food groups and then it became four. So that changes over time and evolves. And in terms of the way that we define what is, quote, real estate or what is core or what is non-core, it's really in the nature of the cash flows and the durability of the cash flows versus getting very hung up on a particular label. So I definitely agree. You know, hotels, the cash flows are not particularly durable, they're very variable and very cyclical business and can be a very, very high CapEx business. But if I were to look at self-storage with some people would not consider to be core, very predictable cash flows, very resilient in various economic environments. And to me that's core all day long. I think the labeling has changed a little bit over time and people's comfort level with what were formerly called niche property types has really increased. 

Spencer Levy
Well, clearly office is, I would say, the most talked about asset class today, given its challenges, particularly Class B secondary locations. Since we're using the term operational real estate, I often put office outside of that. But office may be the most operationally intensive business today. So tell us about what you see as the secular shift within office. 

Cathy Marcus
Well, I think one of the main changes is really that back in the day, office was just - as an office landlord, you were providing someone a place to work. It was shelter. And now as an office landlord, you're responsible for so many different aspects of your tenants lives: their wellbeing, their social life, their physical health, and how they feel about themselves in terms of being in that building. It's just a very, very different model. It has become so much more operational, and what people expect from their workplace and from their environment is totally different. Now - actually, the workplace and your office and your physical environment is much more tied up with brand and with your ability to draw people back to the office. So I do think that the dynamic around office going from being a place where you went and sat and worked all day to a place that has to do with how you define yourself, is that that's the difference. It's hugely more operationally oriented. 

Spencer Levy
And operationally it’s not just the physical building itself, the common areas, it's your own individual space. And so I was fortunate - I did a tour of your space here at the gym last time. I was here about a month ago. It's beautiful. But tell us about how your space is different today than what it was - previous to this. 

Cathy Marcus
Our space here now is very different from what it has been. And it's interesting, if you look at our offices around the globe, you can very easily time mark them as to when they were opened and when they were designed. Things like floor to ceiling glass that you see here. Things like - are their offices on the window line or are all the cubes on the window line? How open is the format? Actually, interestingly, I remember this was a long time ago, but I toured your CBRE offices in Tokyo. And that was one of the first times that I saw something that actually looks like what office space looks like now. And that was, I don't know, at least eight or nine years ago. 

Spencer Levy
That is a format that is designed not just to get stuff done. It's thinking about the total person. It’s thinking about wellness. 

Cathy Marcus
Right. Right. Which is really a requirement these days, particularly in Europe. 

Spencer Levy
Well, let's talk about that for a second. This may not be a perfect office analogy, but I often say this in the retail context. When I travel, I'm always looking for the best local experience and best local restaurant, coffee shop, Italian restaurant, whatever it might be. And very often you see the same things globally. So there's this balancing act, I think right now between the global standard, the local standard. How do you balance the two? Any thoughts on that, Cathy? 

Cathy Marcus
Well, as a global company, that's a huge focus of ours. Not just in terms of how we act internally, but also how we engage with our investors and other counterparties around the world. As a large company, you have this balance of when you walk into any PGIM office around the world, particularly a PGIM Real Estate office, ideally you would say, Oh, this feels like a PGIM real estate office. But depending upon where you are, local custom is extremely important, especially real estate is a local business. Ultimately, we can have global players, global companies, but real estate is more local than most businesses, I think mostly because of the physical nature of the assets. So I think you really have to balance that well, and actually the difference between walking into an office in Asia and the tradition and and how you're greeted and the formality and walking into an office in San Francisco, those are very different experiences as they should be. And yet you still would want to convey the same big picture brand concept. 

Spencer Levy
So you are a COO with global responsibilities. Tell us a little bit about that. And we talked about how the office might be the same or have some local flavor. But in your role, how do you handle the global versus local nature of your job? 

Cathy Marcus
When I'm wearing my COO hat, it's a very global role and essentially I'm responsible for all the people that keep the trains on the tracks - globally at PGIM real estate, and that can vary from operational risk to investment risk to compliance to investor services. So a pretty broad array of different types of functions, especially you think about compliance and you think about operational risk and you think about the fact that there's different governance and different regulations all around the world. So you have to be able to be global enough to have a big picture view of that. But our operation in Luxembourg is going to look very different than our operation here in Newark from a compliance or an operational risk perspective. And so we really run our functional areas globally with local presence. But globally, we want the experience to be very similar. If you are investing in our US core-plus open-end fund or you are investing in our Pan-Asian value-add Alpha series, you should have a very similar experience as an investor and a client of ours. Obviously, the investment strategy is going to be different, but you are reporting package should look very much the same. The level of transparency that you can expect should be very much the same. And I think the only way to really make that happen is to have a globally integrated, functional backbone of a business where the local investment teams are investing in their local markets in accordance with whatever investment strategy they are executing upon. And that is the very local aspect, which is super important. But everything else, all of the infrastructure and all the scaffolding that keeps that going, that really should be globally integrated and globally consistent. And I think that is what differentiates a big, solid, global player from someone who’s, I'll call it, dabbling internationally, which we were for many years when I first started here. But that's the difference. It’s really facing off with the market. Just like with you, our investors and our clients are increasingly global in nature and very sophisticated players, and that's really what they expect. 

Spencer Levy
I love the way you framed it. The infrastructure of investing should be globally consistent. There are other things that simply by virtue of the fact that the regulations are different in place A versus place B may have different local nuance to it. We'll talk about ESG in just a moment. But Cathy, I know you're active in The Real Estate Roundtable, as I saw you at the last meeting. The big issue that came up, I think the biggest issue that came up from my perspective was something that we don't think about all that often on this show: property and casualty insurance. Because it is a very local issue. And unlike many regulatory issues, it is state by state and just about everywhere we're seeing significant increases in costs. How does PGIM see it? 

Cathy Marcus
Unfortunately, just like that, very significant cost increases. Actually, just like many other organizations, our asset management teams are now budgeting for 2024. And, you know, some increases in insurance, 30-35% in some of these markets. And that's assuming that you can get the insurance. And that is becoming increasingly difficult in markets like Florida, where so many insurers have left the market. And then, of course, you have different state pools that are trying to address that issue. But I don't think the current trajectory is sustainable in terms of insurance. 

Spencer Levy
And I would agree with that. And I don't know if you need a federalization of it. I'm aware of some clients that have pulled together with other clients to try to get group coverage. Which I suppose is a form of self-insurance when you have enough assets together. But there are strategies to get it lower. But the challenges for - I suppose the smaller owner operator is you can't pool your assets as well. 

Cathy Marcus
Right, I would not want to be a small owner operator in this insurance environment. We have a very large portfolio and we have essentially blanket insurance and we do some self-insurance and we can. But if you've got $500 million of assets under management, you can't really afford to do that. 

Spencer Levy
Now, ESG is another issue that is very different depending upon where you go. And what we've often said is that this issue, particularly when it comes to Environmental, the E, was led by Europe. And European investors are now requiring these types of compliance issues when they buy in the US, even if the locality doesn't have it. What do you think? 

Cathy Marcus
I think that that is the path of travel. And I do think that The US may not be as forward about ESG as Europe is, but the basic concepts as relating to owning real estate are the same. The politics are different, and the societal norms are different. But at the end of the day, I don't care where your real estate is. If your operating expenses are lower, your real estate is worth more money. So it doesn't matter really what the ideas are, what the attitudes are, and even the local regulation. Local regulation can make things more or less extreme in certain areas. But at the end of the day, the efforts around reducing energy usage and water usage, that's just good real estate, that's just good investing. And therefore, I think that that is really a universal concept in our business. Now, how much people are really demanding very specific measurements around that and reporting. And SFDR is really very challenging for a lot of managers - in The US in particular. But at the end of the day, I think it's just going to become so much more of an assumed way of doing business. 

Spencer Levy
Let's go back for ten seconds. You used an acronym, SFDR. What does that mean? 

Cathy Marcus
Sustainable Finance Disclosure Regulation - And it is essentially a European regulation that even if you are a US company who is only investing in the US, if you want any European investors to invest in your product, you have to abide by SFDR. And it's really all about disclosure. And I think that the main point of SFDR is to make sure that people are not greenwashing. They're not saying, I have this great ESG oriented product, but actually there's nothing to back that up. SFDR is really evolving still. People are still trying to understand exactly what the rules are, but at the end of the day, I think it's here to stay. I think that people will start to maybe interpret the rules more consistently and differently over time because we are still in very early days. But I do think that many investors are concerned about greenwashing. And they don't want to be involved in anything that has to do with greenwashing. And managers are worried about - well, how do we keep ourselves from looking like we're greenwashing? And so having measurements that are very clear and accepted and where there is a reporting framework that is universal. I don't think we're there yet, but I do think that that is the intent of SFDR and of a lot of the regulations. I will say, it is kind of a pain when you're a global manager that everyone seems to have their own personal regulation and - you look at New York City, everyone has their own personal thing, and I don't think that that's particularly helpful. It would be nice if there was a little bit more agreement generally around what the objective should be and how to get there. 

Spencer Levy
So staying on the topic of sustainability and going back to an earlier part of today's conversation about operational real estate, one of my favorite forms of operational real estate is data centers. The reason why I like data centers is for all the macro reasons, because of artificial intelligence, people needing more data, they need more speed. I also like them because rents are going up now. They actually were going down until about three years ago. The other reason that I like them, and this is going to sound backwards, they're incredibly energy intensive. They're incredibly water intensive, which I think puts a limit on new supply. So how do you balance those two considerations? It’s great asset class for all the macro reasons, but for these S reasons, sustainability reasons, it presents some challenges.

Cathy Marcus
It does. We actually invested in kind of the 1.0 generation of data centers. Unfortunately, where the rents did go down there, although the cap rates went down much more precipitously than the rents that we actually did quite well. But those tended to be located in areas like Santa Clara, California, where you can keep them cool sometimes just with the air at night and reduce your energy costs a little bit. But you can't always locate your data centers in those types of environments. And in fact, there's data centers in Arizona, which is obviously not all that helpful from a climate perspective. But I could argue the other side of the sustainability aspect, which is if data centers enable more people to work from home, then you are reducing the carbon footprint of the commuting and maybe reducing some of the carbon footprint of the built environment. There are some offsetting factors there, I think, with data centers. But regardless of how we feel about the sustainability aspects of data centers as an asset class, that train has left the station. I like to work from home sometimes. I love to watch Netflix. I like to watch Amazon Prime. And I can't wait to see what ultimately happens with AI. And I'm just like everybody else. So at the end of the day, the data center sector, I'm very much in agreement with you. Not everyone wants you to build one in their backyard. So I don't think that there's going to be this massive amount of supply. And I do think that the need for the data and the really lack of tolerance for latency is going to continue to bolster that sector. 

Spencer Levy
So let's now switch to the S in ESG for just a moment. On a prior show we had recently with another large institutional investor, Nuveen, they just did a very large affordable housing acquisition, about $4 billion. And they use this term double bottom line of A, you're able to get the same returns as anything else and B, it gives social benefit. What does PGIM think about that in the context of multifamily or otherwise? 

Cathy Marcus
We think a lot about that actually. You're sitting in Newark, New Jersey, where Prudential has been headquartered forever and where Prudential has made tremendous investments in the local community. So the sustainable and responsible investing DNA of Prudential, you can see it out the windows here and everything that Prudential continues to do to invest in this community. And that's really just been a part of how this company has operated for a long time. We have a foundation, etc. and that's just always been at the corporate level, at the local more - I would say for many years, philanthropic level, but then having a lot more to do with trying to invest in changing outcomes for people. People in Newark and in other communities where we serve. But now moving over to PGIM, to our investment management business, PGIM Real Estate, we are in the process of launching our second closed end impact oriented fund. Essentially focusing on affordable housing and transformational development. And these are not concessionary return funds, these are value add returns and fund one is already invested entirely in a value add style. And now we'll be launching fund two: same thing, we'll have much more of an emphasis on affordable housing. Lowercase A, not capital A because we really believe that housing affordability is just a huge crisis in this country, but also around the world. I think one of the misnomers and one of the things that sometimes might have impeded the ability to raise a lot of money for these types of strategies is that in the past, I do think that investors, they don't really like the term impact in their fund name when they're going to investment committee because it sounds concessionary and it makes a lot of sense because many institutional investors have a fiduciary obligation to get the highest returns for the risk that they're taking on behalf of their investors. But that does not mean that they can't participate in the creation of affordable housing. And our strategy is primarily development oriented. And so it's creating new housing that is affordable for people. It doesn't mean that it's subsidized. In fact, generally it's not. 

Spencer Levy
And so just for our listeners, understanding Capital A is typically associated with what's known as LIHTC: low income housing tax credits. Lowercase A or housing affordability is product that is outside of that realm but may nevertheless be affordable. And that could include manufactured housing. It could include other forms of what people sometimes call workforce housing in an area. We had a show about a few weeks ago, which is Single-family Rental, or BTR, which is an area that actually I'm quite bullish on because I do see if there is a decline in suburban office certain of these corporate campuses. I think it's a perfect place to put more BTR. What's PGIM point of view?

Cathy Marcus
So we like manufactured housing and we in particular like manufactured housing that is age restricted because it is a way to provide an affordable retirement lifestyle for a lot of people. And that's something that we really like, particularly where it's amenitized. It’s another space – I'm sure you'll agree – that there's not a lot of supply coming online. It's not easy to get approvals to build new manufactured housing sites in terms of single family rental. We're also very bullish there. And in particular, we'd like the built for purpose versus the scatter where you just go out and buy various houses. We like what you might even call horizontal multifamily, where everyone has the same refrigerator, everyone has the same stove. It's a multifamily operating type model, but people have a backyard. Essentially the amenities are maybe a little bit different. They're built a little bit more neighborhoody, I would say. But we're very bullish there. And you know, some people are saying, well, what if interest rates go way down again? Is that still going to seem very appealing when more people can afford a house? Interest rates are not the only thing keeping housing from being affordable. The pricing is unattainable for many people. The amount of down payment that people have to put together, the amount of student debt that a lot of young people are carrying. I'm not saying that people are never going to want the white picket fence in the suburbs to own their own home, but it's not for everyone. And I also think that the workforce and the way people approach their careers right now is they want more flexibility and they don't necessarily want to be in the same house for 30 years. So I think that there is definitely a place, even in a low interest rate environment for single family rental. And I don't think that it's an either/or between single family to own or rent. 

Spencer Levy
Well, I think it's not just the younger age cohorts. I have a good case study. I just helped my mother sell her house in Harrison, New York that she lived in for 50 years and she was like - saying, well, let's go buy a condo. Let's go buy a co-op. Let's go… I said, Nope. I said, Why don't you go get yourself a very nice one or two bedroom apartment? And she did. In White Plains, New York, a bunch of her friends are in the building. She's super happy because she's got flexibility. She doesn't have to deal with a leaky roof and a lot of other things. So I think renting may be undervalued in a certain way. 

Cathy Marcus
And I think it also becomes a lifestyle choice. Empty nesters never really were a target profile or retirees for multifamily, but now people want to be able to travel and just lock the door and not have to worry about whether someone's shoveling the snow, etc.. Historically, people thought of the multifamily sector as the first couple of years out of college before someone got married. They lived in an apartment and that's not the case at all anymore. 

Spencer Levy
Cathy, I know that you've appeared on several top 100 women in real estate lists. I saw one recently. Hopefully I'm not embarrassing you, but you have a terrific story. And I think for the benefit of our listeners, if you wouldn't mind, tell us how you got into the business and some of your tips for success. 

Cathy Marcus
Sure. So I have only ever worked in real estate. I was a real estate finance undergraduate major, and then I got a master's in real estate investment and development. So no plan B here? I've been in real estate the whole time, and I'm very fortunate that I chose something that to this day, 35 years plus, I still really love it. And it's just a great industry and one that I would say to any young person starting off, it's a business where it's definitely about the math and about the investment side of the business, but it's very much a people business and as you know, Spencer, there’s lots of very interesting characters in the real estate business. And I would say that's a global phenomenon, not just an American phenomenon, and it's a super fun business. I had a very typical trajectory in terms of starting off in an analyst program. I worked for a developer in New York and this is my second insurance company and I have been in transactions. I've been in portfolio management. Now I'm on the operational and leadership side of the business, and it's all fun. My top advice that I give to people is just do a lot of different things in the business because it will ultimately be to your benefit to have worked in debt, to have worked in equity, to have done workouts, working through good markets and bad markets. I mean, some of the best times that I had in my career, honestly, was during the RTC days in the 90s. I was junior enough that I didn't really have a lot of skin in the game, but I was also junior enough that I got a lot of opportunity that I might not have gotten if I was more senior. So for me, it's just been a great ride. And to your point around being a woman in this business, there were not a lot when I was coming up. But interestingly, my path was so unusual in that my first job out of college, I worked at Integrated Resources, which was a syndicator, and there were a lot of senior women there. Because it really had spun out of a law firm that had a lot of senior women partners. And then another job of mine, I worked for the same woman for over seven years. So I had an unusual experience, not reflective of the market at all. And I don't think I realized that because when I was first out of school, I saw a lot of senior women in the business. It happened. It was a very unusual circumstance, and the improvement that I've seen since I've been in this business is just unbelievable and particularly the last ten or 15 years. It's remarkable and makes me feel very hopeful. 

Spencer Levy
I think those are great words to end on. So on behalf of The Weekly Take, I want to thank Cathy Marcus, Global Chief Operating Officer and Head of US Equity, PGIM Real Estate for joining us here today in Newark, New Jersey. 

Cathy Marcus
Great, thank you. 

Spencer Levy
Thank you, Cathy. 

Spencer Levy
From the historical context and current market insights of one of the top women in commercial real estate. Next week, we turn to the future of our business. We’ll feature upcoming episodes on attracting talent and diversity through the work of a program called Project Destined and a return visit from a popular guest, author and futurist, Jacob Morgan. We’ll also take a trip off the beaten path for an episode featuring a former teacher turned adventure traveler who will share the lessons for life and business that he learned from literally walking across a continent and other challenging exploits. So stay tuned for all of that and more. Meanwhile, for more on the show and ways to share the program, please visit our website, CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. You can also contact our team directly by using the Talk to Us prompt. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review us wherever you listen. For now, thanks for joining us. I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart. Be safe. Be well.