Level Up: WeWork’s CEO on the company’s reset

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Spencer Levy 
WeWork was a startup that helped popularize a new type of workplace originally known as co-working. It skyrocketed to a $47 billion market valuation until it fell into bankruptcy. With flexible office solutions more in demand than ever and the one year anniversary of the company’s emergence from bankruptcy fast approaching, WeWork has a different story to tell.  On this episode, we visit WeWork's New York headquarters to sit down with its new CEO, a decidedly old school real estate pro who took over last year to reshape the mold breaker.

John Santora 
The headlines are now about WeWork debt-free. We Work exiting. WeWork now doing large deals around the world. WeWork opening up new spaces. So we're driving forward. 

Spencer Levy 
That's John Santora, WeWork's CEO and a dyed-in-the-wool real estate man who grew up on New York City's Staten Island, about as far from Silicon Valley as it gets. John spent 47 years with Cushman and Wakefield before taking this job just under a year ago. Today, he leads a business with a presence in 125 cities across 37 countries, facilities covering about 45 million square feet, spaces that can accommodate anywhere from individual members to corporate teams as large as a thousand. Coming up, we finally answer the question of whether the disruptive company that changed the office sector is in the real estate business or not. The new face of a familiar brand name: WeWork. I'm Spencer Levy and that's right now on The Weekly Take. 

Spencer Levy 
Welcome to The Weekly Take and we are delighted to have the CEO of WeWork, John Santora, with us today here on 5th Avenue in New York City at a beautiful WeWork location. John, welcome! 

John Santora 
Thank you, Spencer, great to be here with you. 

Spencer Levy 
Great to have you out here today, John. So, let's just start big picture. Is WeWork a real estate company? 

John Santora 
Yes, WeWork is a real estate company. We lease space and we sublease space and provide hospitality and experience in there, as well as technology and some other services. 

Spencer Levy 
Ok, that's good. And, actually, I prefer that answer. You know what? I'm proud to be in real estate. 

John Santora 
I am, too. 

Spencer Levy 
Some people say, ‘We're a tech firm’ – Well, no. You know, you have technology, but it's real estate. That is your core. 

John Santora 
Yes, it is. 

Spencer Levy 
Okay. So when I first started hearing about WeWork and your owner, SoftBank, they were big tech firm and they were investing in tech and WeWork was part of that revolution. It's still part of the enterprise, but has WeWork changed as it evolved, as it matured into a different type of business? 

John Santora 
So WeWork, in its heart, is a real estate firm. There's no question about it. The model is to lease space and then sublease space and provide a level of amenities and hospitality and operations to that user of the space. We provide some great technology along with it, but at its heart and at its core, it's a real estate firm. 

Spencer Levy 
So, now, let's go pull the lens out a little bit more. Most of our listeners know what coworking is. At least they have an impression of what it is. How do you define coworking? 

John Santora
It is the ability to provide a great environment for people to work in in a flexible manner. So, they can take the space in any period of time. They can take it for a month, they can take it for 12 months, or they can take it for seven years. 

Spencer Levy 
What is the state of the brand, in particular, within the flex space. WeWork is a very well-known brand in the space. It's had incredible highs. It has had its challenges.

John Santora 
Sure.

Spencer Levy 
Anything you'd like to say about that and about where we're going? 

John Santora 
Yeah. So, I look at it, it's all about going forward, right. We are a couple of weeks short of a one-year anniversary of exiting the bankruptcy, the restructure. I think part of what I've done in our communications team and my leadership team has done is change that narrative over the last 12 months or 11 months. And when I first got here, every conversation started with the B-word in WeWork. And if the building was going back to a lender, it said, and WeWork used to be a tenant in there. We may have been a tenant there 10 years before, it might have traded hands three times. But, yes, we were a tenant in a building that's going back to a lender. Those headlines are changing. The headlines are now about WeWork debt-free. WeWork exiting. WeWork now doing large deals around the world. WeWork opening up new spaces. So, we're driving forward. This is all about going forward. We're disciplined. I am born in real estate. I had 47 years at Cushman and Wakefield. I started in an engine room. I can turn wrenches, and I know how a building operates from the inside out. And there's nothing about a piece of real estate that I don't understand and that I couldn't personally fix, I'll tell you that much. So, there's a discipline and a structure that comes from me, that comes from our new leadership team, that comes from our new ownership structure. Um, and so, I'm, I’m really excited. The team is excited, and our members and clients are excited about what they've seen. We're putting $80 million this year into our spaces, between $80 and $100 million to refresh our spaces and upgrade them. And we've got the plan to do that for the next three years, right. There was a period of time where we couldn't invest. We've got them money. We've the money on hand to make those investments. We've got the money to take on some new locations where it makes sense, and we're growing. 

Spencer Levy 
Right now you're at about 40 million square feet. 

John Santora 
Forty five, yeah. 

Spencer Levy
Forty five. So, where do you think you're going to go in terms of size, markets, size of footprint, markets or otherwise? 

John Santora 
If I looked out a couple of years, I don't see this 45 becoming 90. I think 45 maybe becomes 60. It's a disciplined, profitable growth. We need to be where our members need to be, our clients need to be, right. So, there's not a lot of markets we're going to enter for the first time. I'll give you an example. When I first got here, we were in a process of selling off our operations in LATAM and in Brazil and Argentina. And I stopped that, and we agreed to actually acquire 100% of them. Because those markets are important. They're important to some of the pharma companies we have, some of the technology companies we have, they don't want to have to go in and negotiate a lease with a Brazilian landlord. Market that they don't know, they don't understand, and they're not sure that they want to be there for 10 years. So, we need to be there. Might there be a country or two? Maybe in South America, but there might be another couple of locations that we need. As we look across Europe, some of the European markets are developing and growing. I was in Berlin two weeks ago. That market's energized. It's exciting. And there's young talent there and growing. So, is there an ability to add a space or two there? Absolutely. Am I going to add in London? Probably not. Well, I may upgrade in a couple of spaces in London, but I'm not going to add. So – so, I don't think 45 becomes 90. Does it become 60? Maybe. But, I will tell you what. Every one of those will be modeled out of significant profitability. 

Spencer Levy 
So, you mentioned a variety of industries. Is there any particular industry that WeWork targets and those that you think you can grow into? 

John Santora 
So, I think that traditionally the technology firms have been an important part of our growth, and they continue to be. Um, so – so, yes, so tech is one. We have 220 AI firms around the world. I was shocked at the number of AI firms. 

Spencer Levy 
Two hundred and twenty AI firms? 

John Santora
Yeah, I was shocked. And again, they're from three or four person firms right up to the biggest in the world, and they're growing. They are all growing. So, that's one of the areas we see – the financial institutions are back. There's a trust in WeWork. There's trust in my management team and there's a trust in our financials. So, we're seeing the banking companies coming to us, including the biggest in the world. And you've seen some notes on that. So – so, the financial industry, that's not going to take off like this. But we will help them in different markets around the world. The farmers have come to us in a big way, which is really surprising to me. Um, so that's an exciting part of our growth. We've got a couple of new ones coming up now with that and –

Spencer Levy 
And when you think about the farmers they're not all making drugs, they are selling them and it's more of a white-collar job – I mean I guess it's a white-collar job if you're, if you're baking them as well. But these aren't necessarily laboratory – 

John Santora 
No. These, no – right. These are not the manufacturing plants. These are the sales offices around the world. And, um, and so, so  those are the farmers, the financial companies, the tech companies, the service companies. Think about the big auditing firms, how they use space. They used to – they always had their own space, but they used to come into a corporate office and take over all the conference rooms for four months while they did the audit. Those conference rooms aren't available in a lot of spaces anymore. Firms have shrunk down, so they're saying you need to be in your own offices when you aren't. So, that's an opportunity for us, and we're seeing a number of those happening as well. 

Spencer Levy 
Well, that's a great way to ask the most important question. How's the business going? Not just WeWork but coworking overall. 

John Santora 
So, coworking overall, I think, around the world, especially in the key markets, right. And in those 10 to 15 markets around the world that really matter, we're seeing significant growth. Um, so, we know the markets. It's New York. It's San Francisco. It's London. It's Paris. Um, throughout Berlin. I was just out there recently. And, then, some of the LATAM markets – Mexico City is really growing. As well as Sao Paulo and some of those markets. So, all around the world. 

Spencer Levy 
All around the World. 

John Santora 
Singapore is another one. 

Spencer Levy 
So, that's the big picture. The big picture are the centers of commerce and we are sitting here on Fifth Avenue, which is a beautiful location. But, let's talk a little bit micro for just a moment. So, we're here in the town of Manhattan. What is a optimal WeWork location within those markets? 

John Santora 
Our optimal location is around 50,000 square feet. And we have, I think, 30 of those here in New York, some range as high as, well, we've got 400,000 square feet over on Broadway at 1440 Broadway, which is tied to a very specific user. 

Spencer Levy 
Ok. And when I speak micro, so 50,000 feet plus or minus – 
John Santora 
Yeah, plus or minus.

Spencer Levy 
But by neighborhood. So, we're in a dense urban environment here. Is this the optimal neighborhood or do you try to go to like Brooklyn or Queens or places like that? 

John Santora 
No we're, we’re all over. You look at Manhattan, and Manhattan has downtown, so we have five locations in downtown Manhattan. And as you start to move up, here in what we would call Midtown South, seven or eight locations. And then as we move up into that 34th Street District, another seven or eight locations, and the rest would be in Midtown, that traditional Midtown space. And for us, it's everything from a B product building up to a Class A building. 

Spencer Levy 
So, just prior to the meeting, I took a look at our Manhattan office statistics, and fortunately, things are actually doing quite well right now in Manhattan. A lot of people don't realize that Manhattan is, I think, turned a corner. What's your perspective? 

John Santora 
Yeah, Manhattan has really rebounded, and I'm not surprised, right. This is not to be arrogant, but this is the center of the world when it comes to commerce, when it comes to finance, when it comes even now to technology. So, maybe it's second to San Francisco, but that's what's bringing it all back. You look at the Class A product in Manhattan, the vacancy rate is very low, well, low for other markets. It's probably in the 10% range, depending on where you go. If you look at Upper Park Avenue. You can't find the block of space of 50,000 square feet or bigger. As you move to the B product, you've got some more vacancy in that. And downtown is still struggling a little bit. Downtown is still trying to find its footing. And I think as we look at downtown on a go-forward basis, we'll continue to see more residential come up. But, you know, we can't forget that there are some great brand new buildings, or really very new buildings in the World Trade Center properties and some of the others around there. So, I think if we look a few years out, it's going to come back as a true exciting market. 

Spencer Levy 
So, let's just talk about the business model of coworking. There's been a lot written about it over the years, some good, some challenging. So, you're a landlord, you can have WeWork or you could have a traditional office lease. Why WeWork? 

John Santora
So, it's a combination of both, right. You need that traditional office space, but by bringing in a WeWork, we energize that space. We bring more people to the location. You actually get an opportunity to show off your space, you're building. An opportunity for some of those tenants as they look to grow or our members as they look to grow and expand, they may end up taking a traditional lease within your building. We also pay a very fair rent. We would take the space generally at the same market rent as somebody else would. Now, a little challenge on the landlord side, we get a little more traffic than a traditional office space may get, but that has its pluses and minuses, right. So, you have the traffic coming in, so you have greater exposure to the outside world, but you also have a little heavier use of your elevators and so forth. 

Spencer Levy 
Tell us a little bit about that model because you probably have some folks here that are sole practitioners and whatever they do and then you have big corporate accounts. Tell us about how that model works from a customer standpoint. 

John Santora 
Yeah, that’s the – that's the great thing about our business, particularly what we do. So, we're known, and I think the outside world who hasn't interacted with us, think of us as prior to the maturity days of young people hanging out in the common area playing pool or foosball and drinking beer. That is so far gone and long gone. Today, yes, we have a whole lot of the entrepreneurs. If you look at 222 Broadway downtown, there are 30 or 40 AI companies in that building alone and they go from two or three people up to the biggest in the world and you can name the biggest In the world – 

Spencer Levy 
Yeah. 

John Santora 
And they are in our buildings here in New York. We have the small entrepreneurs. We have that mid-sized business. Think of your personal accountant, right. He needs 10 or 12 offices. They love this type of environment because they don't have – we provide the technology. We provide the community area, the coffee, the welcoming receptionist and everything. So, it's perfect for them and they don't have to lay out that capital. And they can have a branded section of the floor. So they – people feel like they're walking exactly, right into the offices and it's their space. Then you move up to the true enterprise locations that we have around the world. These types of clients are looking to balance out their portfolio with some short-term opportunity. So, two-year, three-year deals gives them the flexibility as they grow or maybe shrink in the future. 

Spencer Levy 
It's funny when I first started talking about WeWork and coworking space and the value proposition. There was a pretty big delta between what was being charged on a per square foot basis versus what you might get if you had a direct lease for, say, five or ten years. But today, now that you have some of the top tier buildings in Manhattan charging $200 a foot and above, that delta isn't quite so big. So, tell me if you're a large user coming into WeWork and your rent is – well tell us how much more your rent would be on a per square foot basis here versus a direct lease and what the benefits are of paying for. 

John Santora 
Sure, when you look at it – so if you take a direct lease and you're paying your $100 a foot or $150 a foot and you get your TI and all that, and if you came to us – so you're going to pay probably a third more, but your TI is already done. Your – all of your infrastructure is in place. You have the support, as I said, for your IT work, your receptionist, your coffee, and so forth. So, that additional 50 or 60 bucks a foot covers a lot of things that you would pay for over and above in the other building you'd be in besides the capital costs with it. So, it balances out to where – let's say it's even. Maybe it's a touch more, maybe it's touch less, but it's pretty even as to what you'd spend. But you now have the flexibility to reduce the size of your space, increase the size of your space or leave the space all together. And that there, I don't know how you put a dollar amount on that. If we look back over the last 25 years, right – 2001 crash, right, the technology crash, 2008-09, then we had one there at ‘15-;16, and then we had COVID. How many of the top clients that you've met had a sublease, had to put space on the market, had to write down that space? We give them the ability to not have to write it down. 

Spencer Levy 
When we get to the larger corporate clients or if you're a large corporate client and you take a lot of space here in Manhattan or some space, tell us about the flexibility they might have to have an account where they can use spaces in multiple countries. 

John Santora 
Yeah, sure, and sometimes if they don't take a big block of space with us in a New York or something, you may have a headquarters, but they take spaces around the world for us. A couple of ways of doing that, one, they will actually take some seats or some offices in a country and have a defined time period on that. They may take it for a year or two years, but they also can take all access cards. So, we have a black card that allows you access into any one of our locations around the world and it's a matter of walking up to the front door and you drop the card on it, and you walk in and you sit down and you grab a desk. You can reserve an office, you can reserve a conference room or anything online with our app, and that gives you the flexibility to move around, especially when you're a traveling executive or you have salespeople. If you think back historically, all these firms have all these little sales offices across the country. Let's think just the U.S., right. Those sales offices, how many clients actually come to the sales office? They're really a spot for the sales people to be and to jump out of to go visit their clients. Do you really need to have the fine space that you're paying for, you know, fully leased 10-year commitment of that? You get access to offices nearby where you're going, nearby your clients. You don't have to make that long-term commitment. So, a lot of our clients are using that as well. 

Spencer Levy 
So, here comes the math question.

John Santora 
Yeah.

Spencer Levy 
Ok. One of the things, and when people look at coworking, shorter term leases, they get concerned about the capital market's implications of that, about what does it do to the value of the building? And some people say, well, this may devalue the building if they're shorter term, even if you get higher rents. How do you respond? 

John Santora 
So, I think there's a couple of things, so we traditionally – so we have a combination of, we have management agreements, we have revenue share agreements, and then we have the traditional leases. If we look historically, and if we look out, to get into the best buildings, you need to take a lease, all right. And whether it's a five-year lease or a 10-year lease, we have to make that same value up. We're going to have to put a capital commitment into these buildings and what works for us. How much time do we need to manage the cost of that capital expense? So, from a landlord's perspective, they're going to want, traditionally they would like to have a traditional lease from us or from any coworking firm. Um, but if they have some challenges within that building on space, that's where the management agreement or the revenue share might play. Uh, so, I think we need, as an industry, we're going to have a balance between, like everybody says, oh, you should only have management agreements. It's like, should CBRE only do property management? You've got all these other businesses, right. All different ways. Some have a little more risk with them and with that risk comes a reward. You manage the risk. And for us, doing some of these traditional leases, we have 15 years worth of data. We know where our people come in, so we have a new lease that we're doing in downtown Manhattan. And why am I doing a lease? It's gonna be a 10-year lease? Because we're coming out of a building that is 88% occupied, day in, day out, because it sits over a transit hub. So, I need to get out of that building, the lease is expiring, we're gonna build brand new space right across the street, and we're going to walk them right across the street. And I will be 88% occupied in that new space. So, having the knowledge and the history allows us to make smart commitments on lease deals. And we'll look at other spaces and say, the only way this works is it's a management agreement or a revenue sharing. 

Spencer Levy 
Well, this is a great transition, right, to data and technology right now, because we just had an episode of The Weekly Take, which we dropped this week on PropTech and data and where it's going on. Data is talked about in every one of these conversations. And I think it's done a lot of great things. Ok, and I'll give you my perspective, then I'll ask for yours. My perspective is that when it comes to the Internet of things, in terms of a actual efficiency management of space, we're not there yet, we're getting there in terms of how many people are here, where they sit the most, those types of like day-to-day operational things. But you said something there that I found very interesting. You're using the data to be predictive. And that is, I think, the most important step we get to with data. We're not quite there yet, but maybe not further along. Tell us about how you use data to make better decisions. 

John Santora 
So, when you think about our business is based upon how many people are in the seats, how many days a week, how many days, a year they're paying for those seats. So, we need to capture that because that's our business model. Now, if you're a traditional tenant and using your space, yeah, you want to capture how many and you look at, well, going forward, what do I need in my new space and you're looking further out and everything else for us, it is dollars. People sitting in seats are dollars. So, we have to capture that. We also have to capture – part of our ability to capture it is we're billing it, right. So, to be able to bill correctly, we're billing – we know how many people are sitting in the seats. We also know how often you book a conference room because we're building you for that conference room, alight. And whether it's a two-person conference room, six-person, conference room, board room, right. All of those are separate charges, so that captures and that gives us that data. So we know a client can come to us and say, how much, what am I using? We know exactly what you're using. How are your people moving throughout the space and what you're using each day? So, that gives us the ability to help design what is the next WeWork look like. 

Spencer Levy 
Not just what it looks like, but where it is. 

John Santora 
Where it is and what it looks like, yeah. 

Spencer Levy 
So, let's talk about what it looks like. And we're here today, Fifth Avenue, beautiful location. Um, and it looks like there's a certain percentage of open space, certain percentage of conference room space. And there's some, I would call them quasi private offices. How has that configuration changed over the years? In your opinion, where is it going? 

John Santora 
This is like a 2018 version of our space. We've now progressed past that. I think you hear finishes change and have been a little more elevated. But as far as what the space looks like and how it functions, I think we've gravitated a little bit more towards a traditional corporate space in this means. Some of the finishes are now marble countertops. Some of the conference rooms you walk into, instead of the furniture there, is actually a wood wall, right, as we would see in the old, like the walls would all be paneled, like we'd see in old corporate headquarters. So that we’re balancing that traditional look with the great creative area outside. And one of the things I say about our area outside, if you work in any banking headquarters, are you going to really feel comfortable sitting on that couch when your CEO walks in and you've got your laptop, you're not, right? So, you're gonna go hide back at your desk or in your office. But in this space, everybody's sitting out there, right, and they're all working, but it's a different, comfortable environment, and that's part of what we bring to the world and to the space that you just can't create in your own corporate environment. 

Spencer Levy
But I would say we're sitting here taping today's podcast in a traditional conference room with a nice screen. So, let's just talk about, I guess, just the ratio, again, to be a little mathematical about it, of open space versus closed space. Has that changed? Because I've actually heard mixed reviews on that, that some clients want more closed space, and then we can ask the follow up, how does technology within that closed space play into it. 

John Santora 
Yeah, I think there is a little more closed space. One of the things we've realized over the years is that there are people that work better. They are, we'll call them introverts. They work better in a defined space, a closed space, they do heads down work. And the people moving around them distract them and they're not as good at what they do. So, you have to have some of that quiet space, some of the defined space. You'll see in the back here we have old traditional telephone booths like. And they love jumping in there to have their private conference calls and stuff like that. 

Spencer Levy 
Or turn into Superman. 

John Santora 
Whatever it might be. And yet, we have all this open space. So, our newer spaces have a little more office but we're also building a lot of our newer spaces specifically for our clients' needs. But we are seeing a little bit more of the traditional office space. And more conference rooms, but smaller conference rooms. 

Spencer Levy 
This goes back to something I think he said recently at the Forbes Future Org Summit. You leaned into two concepts here, community and hospitality, right? They're similar, but then the capital markets guy in me says, well, is this a hotel or is this office? It's office, but does it have the feel of hospitality? 

John Santora 
It has to. We've just recently engaged the Ritz-Carlton to do training of all our employees worldwide. And part of that is to continue to create that hospitality feel, that welcoming as you walk in the door or as you ask for something, you have a need. It's a feel of that – um, makes you want to come to the office, right. Part of what we have to do, we as an industry, create an environment where people enjoy being here and wanna be here and are productive in these spaces. 

Spencer Levy 
So, John, you were a Cushman and Wakefield for 47 years and you are now here for a year. And tell us the difference. Tell us – you look happy. I'm looking you in the eye here. You look good. You look happy, you like jazz. Tell us about the differences, pluses and minuses. 

John Santora 
I am jazz. Look, my heart, I love Cushman and Wakefield, the opportunities that they gave me, the ability to grow and learn real estate and all that will always hold a special place in my heart. It's my family in one way. Um, but I have been so energized by this, the new opportunity, the opportunity to turn around a great brand. People can say what they want about this, but when you say coworking, people say WeWork. They don't say any of the other brands that are out there, they talk about WeWork, right. It's like Kleenex. So, the opportunity to turn that around and bring it back up top, how could I not be energized by that? 

Spencer Levy
Mhm. Let's pull those out into a different direction. Just briefly. Capital markets are choppy right now, to say the least. We've had volatility in the stock market. Inflation is high. Interest rates remain stubbornly high. How does that impact your business? 

John Santora 
Couple of things. One, it's a challenge for anybody to invest capital, right? So, for us, that's a positive and a negative. There's an uncertainty that's going on around the tariffs and so forth. And none of that's good for any business, not ours or any other business. But there is a little bit that helps us, right. Firms saying, maybe I’ll – we'll move into a WeWork for a couple of years till this settles out or I want to go into this market but I'm not really ready to commit long-term in that market. So I'll take a WeWork space or a coworking space. So, there's a little bit of opportunity there, but it's not good for anybody. I mean, the choppy markets, the uncertainty around tariffs, the uncertainty about how the United States and all other countries interact together is not good for anybody. 

Spencer Levy 
Have you seen any observations internationally of how some of the turmoil may be affecting your business? 

John Santora 
I don't see it as affecting our business because people look at us as a global business. I will tell you in conversations with people in different markets, there was a – I'm not gonna get into it. Touch political here, but there was trust and a faith in the United States of America. And that's been put into question a little bit. Do I think we'll get it back? I think this is the greatest country in the world and I think that we will get it back. But, right now, there's a question around that. 

Spencer Levy 
Yep, and certainly we're seeing some implications from capital flow. 

John Santora  
Oh, absolutely from Capital Flows, without question.

Spencer Levy 
Without a doubt. So, the WeWork brand. You are the leader of the brand today and you are very energized, jazz. When people say WeWork, what do you want them to say? 

John Santora 
I want them to think about a great place to work, a place with fabulous people, fabulous spaces, and great service. And one of the things I say to my team all the time is I want us to respond to every request immediately. It's not two days later, it's not five days later. And then I was working with salesforce.com yesterday around how do we respond quicker. When somebody's hot, when somebody is cold, when somebody needs something, I want our response to be immediate and I want it to be done first shot. 

Spencer Levy 
What's really interesting about this conversation is like, boy, this sounds just like hotels, but it also sounds like self storage. It also sounds like the services they're providing in retail. I think our business, and since we both have a few gray hairs on our head, is going back to the future. And when I say back to the future, I think the last 25 years, since 2000, the business really shifted to one that was operationally heavy, to one that was financial heavy. It was really – financialization is a word that some people have used. But, now, the good operators are gonna win more today than they have, well, they used to win back prior to the financialization. Do you agree with that shift? 

John Santora 
I absolutely agree with you. There was a day when I walked around this city and you knew when you walked on a property just from the sidewalk up to the front entrance of a quality operator, the family businesses here and the family owners here in New York, you knew that the minute you stepped on their property was high quality. Today, hmm, and I'm nothing against the family business, but from the sidewalk to the front entrance, we're seeing that change back again now though. We're seeing lobbies getting redone. We're seeing - so yes, I absolutely agree with it. It's the level of service in anything we do and I think that's changing in all the young people too. It's about service, it's about experience and I think that's why we're changing in that way as an industry. 

Spencer Levy 
So, John, I gotta ask, I'm from New York and we don't get a lot of folks from Staten Island. You've lived in Staten Island your whole life. It is the forgotten borough in many places, but I remember I played La Tourette out there. One of my favorite rounds of golf I ever played was at La Tourette. But, Staten islands, um, tell us about why Staten Island for 47 years. 

John Santora 
It’s home, all right. I'm grounded there. My family is from there. My kids now have houses there. My grandchildren are there. There's a comfort level and a warmth. And I will tell you that during the years in my career, I've said it at occasion to Debbie, should we move into the city? We'll get someplace in Manhattan. And she said, she'd look at me and say, only if we keep Staten Island. And I look at it, well, we can't have two of them. And she'd say, so let me get this straight. You get on a plane on Monday and you come home on Friday, so you're gonna move me away from my family and friends and stick me in the middle of Manhattan by myself. Nah, that doesn't work for me. She's a brilliant lady. 

Spencer Levy 
I actually moved from New York to Baltimore, and I – it's hard. You know, I have a good colleague of mine. He said, you must be kidding, everybody lives in New York, right? But Staten Island is a great place to live because it's sort of like New York light in a good way. Is that a fair way about it? 

John Santora 
Yeah, it is a fair way to put it. It's easy access to the city. Debbie and I love going to the theater, so twice a month we're at Broadway. So, it's a 45 minute ride in. Okay, it's an easy shot, right? But you have the comfort of being in a little bit of isolation in the borough from all the other stuff that goes on. 

Spencer Levy 
Yeah, and they got great restaurants out there. 

John Santora
Great restaurants. 

Spencer Levy 
Great day of life. And you got the Saturday Night Fever Bridge that takes you between, uh – people who our age remember the movies here. 

John Santora
Yeah, absolutely. 

Spencer Levy 
With the bridge's nickname, the Verrazzano-Narrows.

John Santora
Absolutely, yeah. 

Spencer Levy 
So, John, last question. First of all, congratulations on your success for being here, the CEO for a year. You are leading a charge, not just of financial change, but a cultural change. What would you like to see happen in the next couple of years? 

John Santora
My goal, and I think the goal of all of us at the company, is we want to get to a point where we are – and look, the last couple of quarters have been profitable from an EBITDA perspective, but I want a solid cash flow out of this company, right, so that we can continue to invest in great spaces and in our people and make a reasonable return for the firm. 

Spencer Levy
Well on behalf of The Weekly Take, what a great conversation with John Santora, the CEO of WeWork, Staten Island native staying there. Congratulations on your success. Thank you for coming out today, John. 

John Santora
Thank you. Thanks for having me. 

Spencer Levy 
For more coverage of office real estate – from traditional space to flexible providers like WeWork, Industrious and others – and profiles of other headline-making sectors, click over to our website, CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. And stay tuned for new episodes in the weeks ahead. For this summer, we're working on episodes with investment insights into a variety of REITs and asset types. And we'll also return to our ongoing look at the future of urban markets, namely our Shaping Tomorrow Cities series. So tune in for all that, and in the meantime, don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the show wherever you listen. Thanks for joining us. I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart. Be safe. Be well.