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Spencer Levy
Regular listeners to our show have heard a lot of talk lately about capital sourcing and strategies. And because the search for capital is an essential issue for the business these days, we bring you another important angle on it. On this episode, we take you inside the practice of recapitalization with first-hand perspectives that take you past the velvet rope of so-called secondary investing.
Chris Reilly
Imagine as you're walking down the street the bouncer opens the door and says “Come in. Take a look around. See what you think. You don't have to pay the cover yet.” And then you get to decide which of these bars you're gonna go into. That, in a very simplistic fashion, is an aspect of secondaries.
Spencer Levy
That's Chris Reilly, Managing Partner and Head of the Real Estate Solutions Group at Brookfield Asset Management. With bases in London and a freshly renovated headquarters in New York, where we taped the show, his group focuses on global strategies on recapitalizations, typically as the lead partner in joint ventures, with total assets worth just over $6 billion.
Matt White
If you have the benefit of going to that bar after the crowd has assembled, some of the opening acts have already performed. The atmosphere's there. You're gonna have a much better experience watching that headliner show.
Spencer Levy
And that's Matt White, a Senior Managing Director in CBRE's Private Capital Advisory practice within the company's Global Investment Banking group. Matt works with general partners like Brookfield and others who are looking to raise capital to acquire new assets or recapitalize their existing portfolios. Coming up: raising capital and a deep dive into the realm of secondaries. I'm Spencer Levy, and that's right now on The Weekly Take.
Spencer Levy
Welcome to The Weekly Take and we are delighted to be back at Brookfield Place. For our active listeners, you'll know that the first live episode we did post-COVID was right here and we're delighted to be back again. And today we are joined by Chris Reilly. Chris, thanks for coming out.
Chris Reilly
Thank you for having me, Spencer.
Spencer Levy
And then my colleague, Matt White. Matt, great to see you.
Chris Reilly
Likewise, excited to be here.
Spencer Levy
Great to have you. So Chris, before we get into today's core topic, which is secondaries, why don't you just describe just a little bit about what the Real Estate Solutions Group does at Brookfield.
Chris Reilly
So at Brookfield, we focus on GP-led, or general partner-led recapitalizations at the asset level. So more simply, we're doing joint venture equity where the existing manager or general partner is reinvesting equity into the transaction. And Brookfield is typically the only partner, 90-plus percent of the equity. And because of that, we will have major control rights over things like exit timing, financing decisions, major business plan items like major capex leasing. We also typically will have an exclusivity over the partners go-forward investment pipeline.
Spencer Levy
And how long would you say is a typical hold?
Chris Reilly
Five years. Five years, but we will try to monetize those assets sooner.
Spencer Levy
And when you say monetize them sooner? Like a sale or sometimes a refi?
Chris Reilly
Well, yes. Either we can sell 100% of the assets to the open market or we can still sell it to the lender. So having done a lot of financings over my career, that is a great avenue in terms of repatriating equity and still owning the upside. But I'd say that's one tool in the toolkit. Ideally, we're gonna look to sell 100% of those assets within that five-year period.
Spencer Levy
So let's turn now to the topic of today's discussion, which is secondaries. What is a secondary? We'll start with you, Chris.
Chris Reilly
I'll give you the more colorful, simplistic analogy and then we can get into the more technical side. But imagine for a moment you're back in college. I know that was a few decades ago, but you're in college. It's a Saturday night. You go to the street where all the bars are located. And you can't see in. You hear the music coming out, but don't know which one to go to. Now imagine as you're walking down the street the bouncer opens the door and says “Come in. Take a look around. See what you think. You don't have to pay the cover yet.” And then you get to decide which of these bars you're gonna go into. That, in a very simplistic fashion, is an aspect of secondaries. We get a free look at assets that have performed over a period of time, and we decide which ones we wanna participate in and which ones don't. So we're getting insights into the investment midway through a business plan.
Spencer Levy
Well that's terrific and it's even more terrific that you got allowed into the bar by the bouncer. I was typically the guy being thrown out by the bouncer. So Matt, we've heard Chris's very colorful definition of secondaries. How would you define what a secondary is?
Matt White
Sure. I describe secondaries as a GP or a client's prospective portfolio that they'd like to hang on to. They may have competing objectives with their limited partner or their investor in the transaction who may be seeking liquidity. The GP may be mid-business plan, or the business plan they seek to achieve has not run its course and they like to hold on to that asset. And so as they think about ways to hold on to that asset for a medium or longer term, they're going out into the market to bring on a new investor to replace their existing investor partner.
Spencer Levy
Without getting too technical here for a moment, let's just describe for our listeners the difference between buying an LP interest versus a GP interest.
Chris Reilly
Sure. So, if you look at the evolution of secondaries over the last 25 years or so, it started with fund-of-funds investors buying limited partner interests in commingled funds. Over time, that has evolved into GP-led or general partner-led recapitalizations, which typically can take the form of a continuation vehicle, where you have a fund manager who maybe has a remaining asset or two that they want to continue to hold for longer, and basically have a fund structure where somebody comes in, into that continuation vehicle, sets the price and the existing investors can roll over into that fund or not and new equity comes in. I'd say that has also evolved a step further into what I'll call more direct secondaries, similar to what Matt was describing where, in the case of the way we invest, you have a general partner or a manager who wants to continue to own the assets. The limited partner or money partner is looking to get out for whatever reason. And we will come in and we'll recapitalize or bring new equity to that situation and partner with the existing manager or GP into a new joint venture. So perhaps it's a 90-10 joint venture where we feel it's 90% of the equity and that is putting in an additional 10%.
Spencer Levy
Now you mentioned the term continuation vehicle. I just like to define these terms for our listeners.
Chris Reilly
Of course.
Spencer Levy
I'll put it in basic terms. Basically, continuation means you're continuing the vehicle rather than selling it. Is that a very simplistic way to look at it?
Chris Reilly
Correct, and it's a continuation of an existing fund is the way to think about it. So in terms of governance and what the vehicle may look like, it's just perhaps a single asset or a single investment that is dropped into a new fund vehicle with similar sorts of governance rights, etc.
Spencer Levy
So Matt, is that kind of what we're talking about here, where some existing investors stay and some may go and get recapitalized by Brookfield?
Matt White
Short answer, yes. What I'd say to that is any GP that's investing on behalf of their limited partner investors, they're a fiduciary and they have to maximize value and do what's right in any given scenario. In the case of a recapitalization or a secondary transaction, whereby they're looking to hold onto an asset, perhaps achieve a new business plan, replace existing investors. They're going to offer their existing investors the chance to roll and continue on in the go-forward vehicle, whether it's a continuation vehicle or a joint venture. And so, as Chris mentioned, the new investor is often coming in and setting a price for the go-forward transaction, and that's the price that the existing investors are going to contemplate either remaining in as a collective partnership or cashing out.
Chris Reilly
The benefit of secondaries, and going back to my bar analogy, you are coming in midway through a business plan. You're getting insight and intel into the business plan, how it's performed. So for example, if we are recapitalizing a partner who has been renovating multi over the last couple years, unlike buying an asset new where you're making certain assumptions about the market and what rents may be and the cost may be, we have the benefit of the last several years of information around. What is the renovation cost per unit? What is the mark-to-market per unit, and that's valuable information to have, and so you're kind of getting a free look at how the investment's performing and getting better certainty around the assumptions that you're making going forward, as opposed to just having to make more macro assumptions when you're looking at it from a primary standpoint.
Matt White
Yeah. Yeah. And I'll take the bar analogy one step further. Let's imagine that this bar is a live band bar. If you have the benefit of going to that bar after the crowd has assembled, some of the opening acts have already performed, the atmosphere's there, you're gonna have a much better experience watching that headliner show than you are taking that risk that you're the first man to walk into the bar. There's gonna be a show later. Is the crowd gonna come? Is the band gonna bring it?
Spencer Levy
I've heard more about secondaries in the last four years than I probably heard in the previous 20 years. And I think part of the reason why I've heard more about that is something that you mentioned, Chris, is that notwithstanding the fact that the real estate market is good, there's still real pockets of illiquidity out there. Some of them include core capital, which has had more trouble raising money than, say, value-add vehicles. But another one is that a lot of the owners of these LP interests, realize that they need cash and they have illiquidity. And in fact one of them that I would mention just by type of investor are universities. A lot of universities now have illliquid vehicles, need cash for a lot of reasons. Is that why we're seeing a rise in secondaries today? In part?
Chris Reilly
Absolutely. So I'd say it's a confluence of factors. You've got about five trillion of debt maturities hitting, you've got fund maturities, you got the vestiges of COVID and higher interest rates which have caused people to require more capital and more time to execute their business plans. And you also have this changing of the guard at a lot of pension funds, endowments, universities where the head of real estate is changing over, the CIO is changing over, they're changing their strategy. So you have this confluence of factors that is putting pressure on GPs to return capital to their investors.
Spencer Levy
So, Matt, just give me a typical client. So let's assume for the moment you have a client that has $500 million of apartment buildings and they need to pay off some of their limited partners in the deal who have been in there for whatever their original term was. What do you do?
Matt White
We have clients coming to us all the time with existing portfolios, but more broadly aspirations to grow their business. And whether they're a fund manager and they're investing through a series of fund vehicles, or they're fundless sponsor and they are investing deal-by-deal joint ventures. They're contending with a challenging fundraising environment, whether buying direct assets or raising blind pool discretionary funds. And so in today's market, we're often suggesting to these investors a review of their portfolios and where they can recapitalize investors as a means to attract new capital. It's a worthy endeavor and often a mechanism to attract. Blind pool or even deal-by-deal capital for future acquisitions.
Spencer Levy
But Chris, when you come into a deal, you're not just recapitalizing the existing deal. That may be the primary way you get in to begin with, but how do you help these companies grow?
Chris Reilly
When we come into our transactions, the initial entry point is a recapitalization. So a sponsor owns an asset, or typically for us a portfolio of assets. We will create a new joint venture with them, let's say it's 90-10, and as part of the governance rights we have, we'll have an exclusivity over their go-forward investment pipeline. So we are providing growth capital. So as they're sourcing investment deals, they're going to show them to us. We'll have a right of first offer on those investments. And while it's not something we underwrite, as you know, real estate's a very localized market. So having sharpshooters within an asset class within a region that are sourcing deal flow from the guy they went to high school with, or the guy that they play golf with on the weekends, right? There's a level of off-market deal flow that these groups will source, and then to have that free option to pick and choose what we want is very valuable. And from their standpoint, going back to Matt's point, in an environment where real estate fundraising volumes are down probably 40 plus percent, it's a great way for these groups to continue to hold on to their best assets longer, but also have growth capital where they maybe aren't able to access the capital markets from a fundraising standpoint. Or rather than being a fund manager, they are more of an operating partner where maybe they raise deal-by-deal or joint venture equity or separate account money. So we play across that spectrum
Spencer Levy
So Matt, the environment for generically raising money is a little difficult today. Where should we be looking for money today for our clients?
Matt White
That's a good question and I'm going to answer your question a few different ways. There's more value-add capital than there is core plus capital. You know, it gets to business plan. It gets to the return profile of specific assets. High net worth capital is great, meaning retail or syndicates of capital for new deals, but they're more often than not a limiter in terms of how big you can go. And so we have clients come to us with a successful track record of acquiring deals in joint venture format with high net worth capital. These are often term takers, meaning as a GP you can generate outsized economics with these investors, but as you continue to buy bigger and bigger assets, you're going to outgrow that stable of investors. So where do you go from there? You evolve into more institutional capital. And these are allocators, these real estate private equity funds, in certain cases family offices, or pensions that are investing direct into deal-by-deal joint ventures. These are investors that may not give you the same level of discretion or the same levels of terms or economics as high net worth investors, but they're gonna do repeat business with you. We often say you do a deal with an institutional investor and you negotiate a joint venture agreement, it's now on the shelf for you to pull off the shelf for future deals and you can replicate that same transaction.
Spencer Levy
We often see groups that are at different stages of their evolution. I think that the typical or the stereotypical real estate company starts with angel investors, which could be family and friends. Then they evolve into country club capital. And then they may get some other very wealthy people. But they get tapped out. Eventually, a high net worth individual, unless you're extraordinarily high net worth, is limited on the kind of check they can write. That's when they come to you often. Isn't that right, Chris?
Chris Reilly
Correct, I would say probably 40% of our deal flow that we see is from groups that have, let's say, started a company maybe 10 years ago along the lines you're describing. They raise friends and family money, high net worth money, maybe some endowment money and they start a business, they grow a portfolio and then they need to do something because those investors are looking for their capital back. As an example, just a couple months ago, we recapitalized a student housing operator that had a portfolio of six assets. We whittled that portfolio down to four.
Spencer Levy
What did they do to the other two? You just kept them out of the joint venture?
Chris Reilly
We kept an eye on the joint venture. So they continue to own and operate those with the high net worth capital. Maybe they'll sell them. Maybe they'll find someone else to recapitalize them. But we recapitalized that subset of portfolio into a new 92.5%, 7.5% joint venture with them and have all the governance rights I described including the exclusivity. So the benefit from their standpoint is now they get to partner with a large capital source like Brookfield. We can fund the investment pipeline going forward to the extent we choose to. And they also get the benefits of partnering with a large organization like Brookfield where we bring a number of other benefits to the table. So, for example, we will source the financing and Brookfield has over 400 different lenders that finance us. No surprise: They will be more aggressive for a Brookfield than they would be for a lot of these other groups. So we'll get better pricing, better deal structure and that benefit will also inure to our partner. There may be things like cost savings. So we will compare let's use insurance as an example. We'll compare the cost of their insurance under their existing policy to a Brookfield blanket policy Most of the time our policy is going to be cheaper just given the volume of assets that we insure or when we go to hire brokers like CB, just given the volume of business we do, we'll get some discounted commissions. If we're looking to do solar, we can bring in our renewable power team, leverage off of their buying power and their expertise. There's just a lot of different benefits that if you're a small to mid-size manager, you get growth capital, you get all these other benefits from working with Brookfield, it makes it a very elegant, very attractive solution for you.
Matt White
And to take that evolution a step further, as Chris mentioned, Brookfield coming in to recapitalize a high net worth portfolio, this new sponsor has Brookfield in tow as a deal-by-deal joint venture partner going forward. That's a smart money validation, a stamp of approval for that sponsor. As they continue to grow and expand and perhaps contend with becoming a fund manager and raising closed-end funds. They will have gone through a rigorous underwrite vis-a-vis the Brookfield process previously, and fund LPs who are perhaps more passive and they're offering their capital on a go-forward basis in a discretionary capacity to the sponsor, they're going to look at Brookfield's validation of that sponsor as a check in the right box.
Spencer Levy
The good housekeeping seal of approval, if you will.
Chris Reilly
That's absolutely correct.
Spencer Levy
And so, Matt, a lot of the companies that you represent are operators that would love to team up with a Brookfield, but I say this with love to all real estate companies, not everybody's ready for prime time. Not everybody has the accounting systems. Not everybody the governance. Not everybody certain things that I think Brookfield would find attractive. So how do you get a company ready for market so that you feel comfortable talking to Brookfield?
Matt White
You want to launch when you're prepared. And so we're constantly pitching or having conversations with GPs really through the spectrum of institutional quality. They may be emerging private owner operator developers. On the developer side, they may be merchant developers that are seeking to hold assets on more of a long-term basis, grow AUM, or they're just a mom-and-pop that's evolved steadily from a vertical integration perspective. They might have just started to build internal property management or accounting. We work with groups like that to sharpen the narrative and build some sort of marketing pitch or rationale for why they're going to seek capital. If you distill down the core objective of a client's fundraising activity, it's gotta stitch together and make sense.
Spencer Levy
How do you vet a client based on asset type?
Matt White
In the context of secondaries, what I'd focus on principally is return profile. For the secondaries market, there's usually a threshold to make a deal work, and that's value-add territory. As you think about sector fundamentals, certain sectors are more ripe or valid for the secondary market. What you'll need is the right entry point. You'll need the right NOI yield or going-in cap rate and then the requisite rental growth to get to a value-add return. In certain cases, does today's conventional multifamily market or five years ago's conventional multifamily market work for the recapitalizations that we're talking about? Maybe more challenging to hit those 15-net style returns on a go-forward basis.
Spencer Lev
Chris I think it's fair to say that when we hear the term secondaries, you're a little bit of a hybrid. You're not a pure secondary fund. A pure secondary is somebody that might actually approach the limited partners themselves or the limited parties might approach you. You buy out their interest and then you're in their place. What you're doing is you're getting approached by the operator and then go to the LPs and then, you may provide growth capital. So let's keep it simple first and then we'll expand. Why not the original strategy? Why not just approach the limited partners?
Chris Reilly
I think one of the things we recognized when we entered this business was, just going back to the evolution that I said before, you had groups that were fund-to-fund investors. They're used to being more passive. They're use to higher level underwriting, less information as compared to Brookfield. And so for us, we felt like we would have a competitive advantage leveraging off of that expertise on the direct side. And bring it to a less competitive space, because when you look at the number of secondaries groups out there, there's only a handful. And none of them do exactly what we do. And so your observation is correct in terms of, I would call our strategy a bit of a hybrid between a value-add asset allocator and a secondaries fund – or maybe a direct secondaries fund is a better way to describe us – but we prefer to actually be able to underwrite these assets lease-by-lease at a very granular level. The reason we've shied away from doing more traditional LP secondaries is because the level of information is typically poor. So you get a quarterly report, an annual report, and maybe you get a call with management. That's not how we're used to underwriting. As I said before, we want to go lease-by-lease, we wanna go through all the financials, we wanna negotiate new legal documents, etc. And what you also find from a lot of groups that tend to invest in traditional secondaries is generally they're buying portfolios of LP secondaries, which means you've got that fat-tail risk because you're taking the good with the bad. So you may end up with a high quality Brookfield fund, but in the same acquisition, you're ending up with the, you know, emerging market ag funds somewhere that is an underperformer and may sit around for a decade. And it's also very passive. So there's not a whole lot you can do except try to buy as cheaply as you can and then lever it. So that also gives us pause because it's a bit reminiscent of the GFC CDO days where you have leverage on leverage. And so yes, that magnifies your IRR, but it can also kill you in a down market. So for us and where we think we have a competitive advantage, we just prefer to be more direct like at the asset level, recapitalizing these deals.
Spencer Levy
Are you leveraging solely at the asset level? So you're not leveraging at the fund level.
Chris Reilly
No, which is another differentiating factor. So our typical leverage: plus or minus 60% of the asset level and that's it. So modest leverage, and from my standpoint, having been through a number of cycles, leverage is usually what kills people. And so if you don't over leverage your assets. You take modest leverage. You try to get structure that's as flexible as possible from the borrower's perspective. That's how you maintain a good business.
Spencer Levy
And what is fat-tail risk?
Chris Reilly
So when I talk about fat-tail risk, it's when you think about the bell curve and you sort of look out at what the–
Spencer Levy
Expected returns are.
Chris Reilly
Expected returns are.
Spencer Levy
Based on probability?
Chris Reilly
Correct. And therefore, you end up with a situation where your best assets perform. But then you're stuck with assets that underperform.
Spencer Levy
Got it, and what you want is, you want most of your assets are going to perform towards the peak of the bell curve. Some of them are going be at the fat tail at the end, the low end. Some are going materially outperform. And what people should understand about capital, there's some capital out there that's more expensive than Brookfield's that are just solely going for the home runs and are happy to get the ones that underperform because if they can get a 10-bagger on the really good ones, it pays off. But that's not your strategy.
Chris Reilly
No, that's more the black swan strategy.
Spencer Levy
Okay, so Matt, if you're a company that's looking to raise money today, just walk through the different categories of options they have. Give us a sense of the universe right now, because as we described, it's hard to raise money right now. What is on the table right now for most real estate companies that you represent?
Matt White
Laying out the options, right, if you're seeking to buy assets, you have the option to buy an asset with joint venture equity. These are typical 90-10 deals capitalized with a sponsor or allocator or the like. Could be a family office or a retail capital high net worth syndicate of investors, as we mentioned before. But these are one-off capitalizations, right. As you move a little further down the spectrum, can you attract a real estate allocator or LP partner that will programmatically buy assets with you. And again, these are still deal-by-deal joint ventures, but you will hopefully have a repeat partner. Moving further down the list, is there an SMA – or, separately managed account – that an investor will give you? Perhaps they'll trade reduced economics or reduce fees paid to you as the GP in return for the ability to see your pipeline and acquire more assets with you.
Spencer Levy
Is that sometimes known as a sidecar?
Matt White
It could be.
Chris Reilly
Sure.
Spencer Levy
It's also the name of a famous old school drink, like with old fashioneds, I think it's like a grasshopper.
Chris Reilly
Right. Is that what you were drinking before you got thrown out of the bar?
Spencer Levy
I think it was the grasshopper combined with the sidecar that got me tossed from that bar. But go ahead.
Matt White
But, yeah, as you evolve from a programmatic deal-level joint venture partner, GPs aspire to be fund managers. And what I mean by that is, they aspire to raise blind pool or discretionary capital. It exists in a fund structure to provide those fund LPs or limited partners with an end time to get their money back hopefully, but they’re ceding discretion or the ability to choose what assets to buy to the GP. If I overlaid blind pool fund vehicles to today's conversation about secondaries and recaps, capital raising the difficulty in raising blind pool capital versus. As Chris mentioned, secondaries transactions that offer a little bit more insight into what you're buying. We call it pre-specification on our side. We tend to see from just about everyone on the fund LP or investor side, a need increasingly for pre- specification in these vehicles in order to invest.
Spencer Levy
Matt, Chris mentioned that he's a five-year, more or less, vehicle. What do you do if Chris comes to you, as opposed to an operator who says, you know what, it's time for us to go a new way. What do do with companies that already have a Brookfield as its partner, and it's the end of Chris's life vehicle?
Matt White [00:28:27]
You have to think about motivations from the GP side and the LP side. The GP, they've acquired an asset or a series of assets. Those assets are presumably generating fees that are paying for personnel and the platform that's been created. They also fought hard in the market, in certain cases, marketed processes to acquire assets that they want. Ending up with assets in a marketed process is not always a sure thing, and so retaining your best assets is often at the top of any GP's list. Additionally, there's a business plan with each acquisition, and that business plan either happens in ordinary course and on time or it doesn't. Some of it's related to GP performance, sometimes it's extenuating circumstances in the market. These are the push-pull on the GP side. The LP side they may have issues that are governing their timing on your investment completely unrelated to your deal. They may be seeking liquidity to satisfy something else on their platform. They may fundraising and they'd like to show a series of wins and this particular asset that you own with them is in the money and by selling it today, you can generate a strong IRR that kind of helps to bolster the track record. So It's a bit of a push-pull.
Spencer Levy
Let's talk about our future looking vision. What's your outlook for the next few years, Matt?
Matt White
I'm cautiously optimistic. I think, when you think about capital raising, secondaries funds have raised a meaningful amount of capital that they intend to deploy. As they're buying assets or recapitalizing portfolios, they're going to be buying out existing LPs that are then going to able to recycle their capital and invest again. And so capital is going to be recirculated back to fund LPs, to real estate private equity funds and allocators. And then hopefully it'll reenter the system and make this capital raising environment a little bit more efficient. So I expect it's only gonna get easier from here.
Spencer Levy
Chris, what's your outlook for the next five years?
Chris Reilly
First, I think under the current administration, just expect volatility. We're seeing that every time we turn around. And from my standpoint, volatility is good. When you have capital to deploy and your outlook over the longer term is positive, but there may be some near-term dislocations, you can take advantage of the market. So I think that is part of the answer. I think the other thing that I look at, which is very constructive and one of the things I learned during the GFC is look to the fixed income markets. Look to the financing markets, because rates are a big portion of cap rates, and financing is the biggest portion of the capital structure for most real estate investors. And so when you see those markets functioning and being aggressive, well, that's a good harbinger for real estate. And I'd say financing markets, particularly in the U.S., are very constructive. Costs have come down quite a bit. Rates are still–they're elevated relative to the last 10-plus years. But if I look back across my career, a 4% 10-year treasury was normal. So I think there's still people that are trying to adapt to that level of rates, particularly when you were buying multifamily at three caps and even if you've had growth, like, the market’s not there for you and so you have to come to Jesus at some point because your debt's maturing and you can't sell at a four cap, and so what are you going to do? Which makes secondaries a really attractive, elegant solution for a lot of these groups. And we've seen situations where we've recapitalized portfolios that both the GP and the LP have lost all their equity, the LP just wants to be done, and the GP is willing to write a new equity check to continue to own those assets and fight for another day.
Spencer Levy
Well, on behalf of The Weekly Take, what a great conversation. It's great to be back at Brookfield Place, the place that we had our first episode post-COVID, and starting with our good friend, Chris Reilly, Managing Partner and Head of Real Estate Solutions Group, Brookfield, Chris, great job.
Chris Reilly
Thank you, Spencer.
Spencer Levy
And then my old friend, Matt White, Senior Managing Director, Investment Banking, CBRE. Great job, Matt.
Matt White
Appreciate it. It's a pleasure to be here.
Spencer Levy
The pleasure was ours. And with thanks to our guests and to you, our listeners, we hope you'll tune in again next week for more. We'll visit San Diego. We'll bring you a special episode in New York with World Trade Center developer Larry Silverstein. And we'll take you inside another velvet rope, the economics of private membership clubs and that growing business. That's all coming soon on the show. In the meantime, you should join our club by subscribing at your favorite podcast platform or through our website, CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. Thanks again for joining us. I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart. Be safe. Be well.
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