Why Can't We Be Friends: Landlords and tenants don’t have to be adversaries

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Spencer Levy 
Every so often I like to arrange small group dinners where I invite an investor client and an occupier client to break bread and more important, to talk shopping in an informal setting where they are not on opposite sides of the table, so to speak. What I found lately is that these traditional counterparties have a lot to learn from each other and in fact share many priorities in today's market. They're often surprised because they rarely engage with each other about real estate in such a non-adversarial way. On this episode, we invite you to join one of these sit downs to hear two leaders, each speaking from one side of this traditional counterparty relationship. 

Zoe Hughes 
There's a real focus on how do we build? How do we get our relationships with our tenants? How do we get that information? How do we deliver what you want as a tenant so we can drive returns for our investors? 

Spencer Levy 
That's Zoe Hughes, CEO of the National Association of Real Estate Investment Managers, a.k.a NAREIM. An organization that facilitates knowledge sharing and best practices for investors, covering everything from organizational strategy to capital raising, brand building dealmaking and more. Founded in 1990, NAREIM currently represents member firms who hold more than $3.4 trillion worth of assets under management, including a roster of over 100 corporate members, 40% of which are global firms. 

David Chang 
I think that converges those conversations between investor and occupier really need to align so that we get the best outcome. 

Spencer Levy 
And that's David Chang, who works by day as the Global Head of Corporate Real Estate Strategy at the bank HSBC, based in Hong Kong and recently took over as the chair of CoreNet Global, which advances professional development, research, networking and more for occupiers across the industry. CoreNet's roster includes nearly 10,000 members, primarily in the U.S. and a total of 50 countries around the world.  Coming up, an all too limited opportunity to bridge the divide between investors and occupiers as we discuss and debate the state of the industry to find common interests and strategic insights. I'm Spencer Levy and that's right now on The Weekly Take. 

Spencer Levy 
Welcome to The Weekly Take, starting with Zoe Hughes, who is the CEO of NAREIM, which focuses on the investor side. Zoe, thanks for coming out. 

Zoe Hughes 
My pleasure. 

Spencer Levy 
And then we have David Chang, Chair of CoreNet, Global Head of Corporate Real Estate Strategy for HSBC joining us from Hong Kong, and Dave covers the occupier perspective. Dave thanks for coming out. 

David Chang 
Thanks so much Spencer for having me and great to meet you, Zoe. 

Spencer Levy 
Great to have you, Dave. So there's very few spaces where investors and occupiers can just talk about what's happening in the market in a non-transactional way. What's your point of view on that, Dave? 

David Chang 
Yeah, I think there certainly is a more of a convergence between occupiers and investors. Some of it's anecdotal. Some of it is just from my experience in the market. But I think what we're seeing here is a convergence of a few factors. One is from an occupier perspective, a lot of us are looking for more flexible, high quality amenities – rich type of workspaces with a tight labor market that we operate in. We've got to be able to attract and retain quality people and real estate is one aspect to do that. Secondly, I think a lot of our organizations, especially the banking sector which I operate in, we have very ambitious ESG goals and that is to serve our regulators. And that's also just to do the right thing for our clients, customers and people. So real estate obviously will play a big part in that. And then just lastly – and that's just part of our muscle memory – is the bottom line. How do we continue to manage our costs appropriately? So what we're seeing is certainly a flight to quality, those assets that represent those three factors really come into play and those are going to be attractive assets for occupiers to consider. So I think that converges those conversations between investor and occupier really need to align so that we get the best outcome. And some of those conversations we're having with investors are along the same lines. 

Spencer Levy 
What do you think, Zoe? 

Zoe Hughes 
I agree that there's a real convergence, and a real understanding that investors are not occupiers really do need to work much more closely together. I do think ESG has really driven some of that conversation as well. As you've looked over the past decade, investors need to work more closely with the occupiers to really get to the heart of how do we push our ESG. How do we actually drive the NOI of our assets? Energy usage, water usage. We need that data. We need to work with tenants. How are they using our assets? I think that's really helped bring some of those conversations together. But Dave, I totally agree. The flight to quality amenities. Investors are here to create their assets for you as an occupier. You are critical to our returns, to our value proposition, our operations. So, that conversation is definitely much more fluid, much more in depth. There's a real focus on How do we build? How do we get our relationships with our tenants? How do we get that information? How do we deliver what you want as a tenant so we can drive returns for our investors? Absolutely agree. 

Spencer Levy 
Now, Dave, you didn't use the term productivity. But, I think that really has two components to it. One component to it is the doing it with less cost, but the other is doing it with better product. How do you see it, Dave? 

David Chang 
We've just gone through a three-year program of reducing our footprint, so we've reduced our footprint by 43%, driving about 420 million in benefits and secured a substantial savings to the bank, which was one of the larger cost savings initiatives. But I think rather than frame this as, well,l this is reducing our cost base – this is great for all of us. The way that we're looking at is, you know, we're reducing our footprint, but we're relocating into better spaces for everyone. As we've gone through this big transformation, we've relocated a number of our sites, which were large floor plates in buildings that we traditionally been in, and relocated to up-and-coming locations, high quality buildings, but less space. So, I think doing more with less is one aspect that we've been really looking at. And then secondly is really starting to drive more accessible design. So, when it comes to accessible refreshment, sensory rooms, braille – just making sure that we're inclusive. All of our staff come into the buildings whether it's two, three, four or five days a week. So allowing them to have access and be productive in a workspace that they enjoy being in is quite key. So I think over all those three years that I mentioned there's been a lot of very, very positive feedback in terms of what we've been able to provide to the point that we've got enough data out there now that when we look at potentially investing more into our assets or. Thing – what we’re realizing is, the marginal utility is diminishing. There's only so much you can really put into the building and provide the amenities that staff want. Any further investment your utility starts to decrease over time. And, so, what we're finding is to generate that productivity, to generate engagement among staff, a lot of it has to do with leadership and management of our senior stakeholders. So, that's a difficult conversation that we're trying to have. You know real estate can get you so far. It's also the soft skills of your leaders in the organization that helps drive that productivity. 

Zoe Hughes
This is not just about office design. This is not a siloed conversation about productivity. This goes to the heart of who you are. David’s an organization of HSBC, a name in all member firms. This is about employee engagement wellbeing. This is the core of what you are as a business. The fundamental value of your business is about your talent and your people. So, I actually think as you think about your real estate, it's to support your recruitment, your retention strategies, particularly your retention strategies. It's about your engagement, your culture, really using our offices to think about – we're going beyond physical health. We have to think about talent. We have to think to their full engagement. How they can bring their full cells to work to the organization? So, I completely agree with Dave. This is not just about office design, productivity, saving costs. This goes to the heart and complements the inclusion strategies, the culture strategies of the firm. It really helps sell your cells to your people. 

Spencer Levy 
Zoe, when you hear 43% coming offline from a AAA blue chip client like HSBC, how do our clients in the investor world see that? 

Zoe Hughes 
You have to look at the opportunities ahead. Obviously, if you've got an existing office ass
ets, you have to understand how to operate them better, how to make them more appealing. You'll be seeing a good number of managers if they do have office. You look into conversions. How can I think about the use of this? Real estate is never static. This is what we always have to remember. You're always seeing real estate – the uses of real estate change, evolve. Nothing is ever obsolete for long. It changes. It gets mixed use. I think you have to look at that. Uses will change, but you look to the future opportunities. And I really do think that you're seeing a lot of the managers in this space, the investors in the space look to those future opportunities. It is about quality. It is really talking to the tenants. What do you need as you look ahead? More mixed use, you're really seeing the evolution of the uses of real estate going forward. So, I think this is much more about looking at the opportunities ahead. But yes, you're absolutely right. The demand for office has pulled back. It has declined. We're now going to see what is that future use of office as we look to the next decade. 

David Chang 
The whole point around, you know, a rising tide raises all boats is a good one here. I mean, some of the conversations that we're having with some of the investor developers in our space, they're a lot richer in terms of what we collectively need to be thinking about. There's a conversation I had last week with a Hong Kong developer, and their questions were around data science, and how do we help you make smarter decisions around your real estate as it relates to the community, as it relates to governments and regulators, as relates to your own objectives within your organization. That's quite key. And building that relationship and ensuring that we have the right stock is key, even though it may not be instantaneous. We've made the decision to relocate out of our headquarter building in London into a completely different asset, and there's been a lot of dialogue around what happens to 8 Canada Square. It's a 25 year old building. Do we convert that to residential? And so there's been some really positive press around with the landlord and investors are trying to do with that asset, you know – convert it to mixed use, allow more flexible amenities, allow different types of usage of that building. So, I think that's going to be more of the norm rather than a one off. And, I think that's what's going to help drive the industry so that we've got the right stock for what occupiers need in the future. 

Spencer Levy 
There are hundreds of institutions that are members of CoreNet. So, you have this diversity of opinion all under the CoreNet umbrella. How do you put it all together? 

David Chang 
And everyone's still trying to sort out what their hybrid, working model, may look like. And they're recalibrating, like you said, Spencer, the thing of different ideas and it could be market centric, it could also be business centric as well. So how do we move away from that experiment and start to adopt sustainable practices that do make a lot of sense, or we're not constantly trying to rejig the real estate to reflect those changing demands? It does give us pause in terms of thinking, well, how do we make smarter investment decisions into our real estate when we put CapEx into buildings, when we start improving accessibility, driving more social events to the building. So, I think all of that needs to come into play. It's really starting to get to the point where we realize the small stuff does matter to our staff. And sometimes just an incremental change could also yield quite a lot of benefit to our staff. So, understanding that business dynamic, understanding what the voice of the customer is really, really key for us. And I think that's what it comes down to, Spencer. 

Zoe Hughes 
Dave, can I ask in terms of how do you balance those generational differences? Because one of the wonderful things that we've got within all organizations at the moment is you've got a vast array of different generations – you know, your executive senior level, you're starting to come in with your Gen Z generations as well. They want very different things from their workplace. And, so, you're having to really pivot your design, how you actually develop space, the use of space. How do you actually balance those very different generational needs and desires or aspirations? 

David Chang 
It's a difficult one. That was when you were asking the question. I was kind of chuckling to myself because last week I saw someone in the office in shorts, and that's the first time I've seen that at a bank, you know, it's always been traditionally your suit and tie. Maybe not ties anymore, but at least the suit. But, it is part of the generational changes and more flexible working environment. It does come down to data. How do we use it to make the right decisions when it comes to occupancy, utilizations, the right amenities – how we make smart decisions around how the space is being utilized and whether it's healthy catering options, concierge type services – all of those things come into play. There's been quite a bit of experimentation, from our end, balancing that with cost, of course, but what we're trying to realize is how do we serve the wider ecosystem as best we can? We can't be unique to everyone, but what's the best way that we can serve most of our staff? And that should be what we aim to do. I think the generational question is very, very different. I mean, pre-pandemic versus post-pandemic, you know, people are coming into the office less and they're coming in with varying hours as well. You don't have your 9 to 5 job anymore. And people use four or five different work settings a day as well. So, what we're understanding is that space and the flow within the building really needs to be fluid and just be really, really flexible around that as well so that we know what works for groups and what may not. 

Zoe Hughes
When we look at this from the investors perspective for their own organizations, one of the things we're finding is that there is a real need to bring people back into the office, not necessarily for five days, but for culture, for three or four days particularly. That culture is so critical to build. That's one of the challenges, I do think, with hybrid working, especially when teams are fully remote, how do you build that culture? How do you build that team spirit, that entrepreneurial investment spirit where where you are a team, you're very collaborative. A lot of real estate investment managers are actually very small teams. At best, some of our biggest members have 350, 400 people. That is a pretty small team, obviously, compared to obviously the likes of yourself. You're talking tens of thousands globally. One of the things we found for real estate investment managers, for the investors themselves, is culture is absolutely critical. So, getting people back into the office, that's one of the drivers behind that. But, I totally agree, you use your space very differently. As Spencer, you're recalling, you know, people needing private spaces. In my former life, I used to be a political editor in the Houses of Parliament. So, hundreds of years we have little phone booths. They were absolutely critical – you're running out of the press galleries, phoning over your copy. We now see them all over the place in WeWorks. These are 100 years old, and we have our little booths to do our stories in. And, so, real estate goes round in cycles. And it's interesting to see how the evolution will progress. You know, the evolution of the use of the site will change over the next five to ten years, so – 

Spencer Levy 
Are you in the real estate business, Dave? And if not, what business are you in? 

David Chang 
When I think about that question, we, we've always been positioned as a enabling function. So, regardless of who we report to, whether it's procurement, HR or, you know, the CEO, CFO, we're in the business of enabling our business to do what they need to do to be successful. So, to answer your question, we're in the banking sector, and that's for us in real estate to really understand what drives their day to day. Is it location strategy being close to the customer? Is it technology and innovation so that they can be more successful at what they do? So a lot of the discussions that we're having with the businesses is around proptech, is around technology. And, so, part of what we try to do now, in a lot more of these conversations when we talk to the bankers is, how does AI, how does technology help drive your business, but also how it drives your internal workplace and how you want to operate going forward? 

Spencer Levy 
Really, I think it all boils down to one word, and it's the same word that I would put to Zoe and investors is that our investors aren't in the real estate business, they're in the labor business. And, I would say that the same thing goes for the CoreNet Group. But since you're both in the labor business, you're in the same business. Your reaction, Zoe. 

Zoe Hughes 
I agree. At the end of the day, when you're making real estate investment decisions, you're following the labor. You're following the people. It's about job growth. It's about people. It's about where they find their business, the pleasure, their homes, their work, their leisure. We are following labor. Absolutely. 

David Chang 
Yeah, 100%. I'm with Zoe on that. I think the conversation that we're having, as a membership base with CoreNet, it comes down to serving and enabling. And what we do, it's through labor. It's through people, and we're people centric business. I talked about data a few minutes ago, but a lot of that also depends on the conversations that we're having – what's working, what's not working, what's attractive, what's not. So, I think that people element of it is very, very important and how we operate for the future. 

Zoe Hughes 
I think what's wonderful about it is that it's about the execution. Yes, we're in the labor business. We're really seeing – where is the growth, where are the people, where's the migration? Where's the job growth? Where's the demographic growth? But, what we're also doing is this is about the execution. This is the wonderful thing. This is what CoreNet delivers. They think about the execution from the occupy perspective. We think about it from the investor, the real estate investment manager perspective. We have other associations in the industry that think about it from the institutional investor perspective. So, the wonderful thing about how we come at things, we come up the commercial real estate industry from these different perspectives and really provide depth of conversations so that we can, within our associations, bring all managers, our constituents together to go through what is working, what's not. How can you share those best practices to go, oh my God, this has happened. How did you deal with this? Because we're trying to advance the whole of the commercial real estate industry. We're really trying to make things more efficient, more effective, more powerful, because commercial real estate has such an impact on all of our lives. So, how can we help those conversations, bringing those conversations together so occupiers and investors can talk more fluently, easily, so that investors, institutional investors and managers can also talk more openly, more fluently? 

David Chang 
When I talk to my peers within CoreNet, everyone's talking about the delivery models and the execution like you said, Zoe, but also how the organizations have changed within real estate. There are a number of roles that I can see on the market that did not exist a few years ago. I mean, you've got data scientists, you've got ESG related leadership roles. Those are the kind of things that obviously did not happen in much scale a few years back. But these are the types of roles I'm going to be leading our organizations and having those fruitful conversations between investor and occupier. So, I think that's also driving a lot of that conversation in a very different way than it did a few years ago. 

Zoe Hughes 
I think the industry has changed dramatically over the past decade alone. You talk data, you talk ESG. The roles within real estate have changed dramatically, and you want to be able to talk openly to people who are doing risk management insurance premiums. You want to be able to talk very openly to people who are doing the ESG dealing with the same issues you are, peer to peer, and I think that's what CoreNet does exceptionally well. That's what NAREIM does exceptionally well. It's that peer to peer. It's very open. It's very candid. 

Spencer Levy 
We talked about labor, we talked about sustainability. But I have to get to the bottom line. And while I'd like to say that investors and occupiers are extremely similar, they have the same needs, goals, objectives, for the most part, they don't always have the same needs, goals, objectives. So, if you were to ask, Dave, one burning question, what you would ask investors that you're not being answered today? 

David Chang 
Sure, sure. I think this goes back to the conversation I had with an investor last week here in Hong Kong. We had a very spirited conversation around proptech and how technology will help enable the future of commercial real estate. And there's some investors that – I'm not sure if it's flavor of the month or if this is a serious consideration but there's different depths of conversations that we're having. I was just curious, I guess, from Zoe, from your organization's perspective, what type of role do you think that's playing? Is it more of a long term play with a lot of your membership base? And how are they looking at essentially where the industry is going? 

Zoe Hughes 
I think data is playing a huge part as managers kind of look to their future. You know, what type of manager are we in the future? We're really focused a lot on our operations, how we obviously deliver those returns to the institutional investors. Data is a critical part of it. Real estate has not ever been known to be embracing technology. It's a bit of a laggard when it comes to the tech side. Getting our hands around the data is absolutely fundamental to really understanding how can we drive anyway? How can we drive performance, how can we drive efficiency? And this kind of goes to my question to you is often the bottlenecks on the data is the tenant. The tenants won't give the managers the data. I'll highlight ESG, you know, energy usage. We need to understand how you're using energy in order to be able to really drive our side of the energy equation. So, how can we get access to data that is proprietary for you, or perhaps not of a bigger concern, something that is a huge, line item for an investment manager. Such as energy, could be 70% of the costs. But for you, as a very, very small percentage of your line item. And it's those challenges, I think. So, I do think data is absolutely critical. Tenant data is exceptionally important as you look ahead, because how can we drive efficiencies? How can we get the assets better? How can we drive that NOI obviously for our own investors, but also for you, because it's important for you that you have spaces that are driving your bottom line as well but when it's on a very different scale. So, I do think data is absolutely critical. Yes, there's huge investment in underlying data, getting access to the data, the data scientists, but it is no good looking to the shiny, sexy tool of AI when the underlying data is not being mapped, collected or on the same – doesn't have the same data governance. That's where we really are, that's where a lot of time and attention is being spent right now. The sexy tools, yes, we need those as we look ahead, but we've got to get the fundamentals absolutely right. But, I would push the question back is the tendency to be a little bit more open in terms of getting us the data in the first place so we can actually drive on behalf of you and obviously the institutional investors as well. 

David Chang 
I do agree 100% because you can't move in lockstep without some sharing of information. I think potentially that was as a result of probably some legacy behaviors around operational risk and data security and things of that nature. But, I think there's more and more of a willingness because of many of our organizations in CoreNet who have big green or sustainable ambitions. And in order for us to achieve that, given that buildings have such an impact on those ambitions, you've got to be very, very smart around how you share your data with your ecosystems. And that's landlords, that’s developers with tenants as well. So, I guess a call to action and maybe to some of our listeners, if there's interest in putting together a minimum viable product or proof of concept with how this data can be shared, what value we're trying to drive, what are some of the outcomes that we're trying to drive? That might be a good test case in terms of how that relationship can work, and how there's seamless sharing of information so that everyone's working towards the same objectives. 

Zoe Hughes
What I would say is that as you look to the future of where you're going to get your returns from in real estate, it is very much about the operations. Where does that value creation come from? We look at the markets, we look at interest rates. The value is not just on the buy anymore. It's not just from financial execution. You have to operate your assets. You've got to drive that NOI. You've really got to push the operational performance of the assets. So that means you really need to work more with your tenants, more with your entire teams. You've got to drive. You've got to really understand – you're going back to the basics of real estate. So, I would say relationships are even more important because you're not just relying on the market, on that8– the value being created on the buy. You've got to really push and work and go back to the basics of operations. So, I think relationships are beyond critical. 

Spencer Levy 
Now let's just talk about the economy, big picture and how it's impacting all points of view. Is this a tenant's market? Is this a landlord's market? I think it was clearly a tenant's market for quite some time. But, are we past that world of landlord versus tenants market and just having a market where landlords and tenants need to work more jointly? Zoe.

Zoe Hughes 
I do think so. I still think, though, when you're looking at the economy at the moment, if you're talking about office, that is absolutely subdued. That is going to take a while to come back to understand, what is that future use? What do we need? But as you look to other property types – because it is property type dependent – you really can't just look at the whole of commercial real estate into one. Is this a landlord market or is this a tenant market? But, I do think on the office side of things, tenants do have more leverage at this point in time. But, I do think you are starting to see the realities of there's going to be a more open relationship, I think, between tenants and landlords as to what do we want, what do we want from this use of space? Dave made this point in terms of, well, how do we think about hybrid? How do we think about our real estate? What we need from this because this is being driven, not just by costs, site selection, quality. Dave, you said they were the three criterias in which you judged, how do I – what space do I need? How do I think about my real estate facilities? You're bringing in talent. You're bringing in other conversations. You're bringing in amenities. You're bringing in wellbeing. There are so many more areas that Dave, in his role as HSBC and then CoreNet, generally. They’re wanting to drive, use their real estate to drive their talent strategies, their business strategies, that enterprise strategies. They're wanting to use real estate in new and different ways. So, I do think what you're going to see is more conversations, better relationships and more openness. Say this is what we need. This is what the landlords can deliver. So, I do think you're heading there at this point in time in terms of office. Absolutely. The tenants do have a little bit more leverage. 

David Chang 
I think your question on tenant versus landlord market, I think on the aggregate, I would venture to guess it's probably a bit more tenant in terms of leverage and favorability. But I think when you're looking at the high quality assets, a lot of the market conditions relating to those assets are holding strong. And, so, in my opinion, for that particular segment, you're a grade A type blue chip buildings, those would be, in my opinion, more of a landlord favored market, because of the demand that we discussed. But, also, the fact that there's fewer of those assets available as well. That's the debate that we're having internally – and a lot of my peers are as well – is if there is that flight to quality and we're all looking for the same assets – you, you can see where the rubber meets road there. I think as it relates to the relationship between investor and an occupier, I mean, I think it can only go up given the convergence of factors that we discussed previously, given the fact that we're all going through quite a bit of transformation. I think it was accelerated by Covid. But as we said around the people on the talent equation given where investors need to think more around resiliency of their assets. It's all a perfect storm in my opinion, Spencer. And, so, I think you'll have more of these conversations happening and hopefully driving our industry in the right direction as well. 

Zoe Hughes 
This is the wonderful thing. It's exactly what Dave talks about. We're building relationships in the future because we're both reliant on each other. We think data, we think proptech, we think AI, we think resiliency, ESG. We think in terms of hybrid. We need those open communications. And, Dave, you want to build long term relationships with landlords, with investors that you know, you can do business with because you need that data, that ESG, that resiliency. So, I think this doesn't have to be adversarial. Markets change, cycles change. Someone will have leverage. Someone will have more, a bit less. That's the nature of real estate. Cycles happen. That's great. But it doesn't need to be adversarial. That's business. What we need is those relationships and those places to have those conversations going, this is work and this is not. That's what CoreNetl does. That is what NAREIM does. We're really open spaces to have and say, this is not working. How can we improve it? How can we all drive forward? How can we improve commercial real estate for the better for everybody? 

Spencer Levy 
So, we're just about out of time. So I’m going to ask one more specific question? And then we're going to ask a wrap up question to both of you. We talk almost exclusively here about office. But, Dave, how do you and CoreNet see other asset types playing into the conversation we're having today about landlord tenant relationships, data and some of the other factor? 

David Chang
CoreNet has traditionally been really focused around office, you know, the commercial sector. Obviously a lot of our membership base have more than just office. Look at retail. You look at data centers, you look at residential, you look at industrial. There is a push to potentially branch out a bit more and look at some of these other asset classes in a bit more detail. We are going through some leadership change as Zoe and Spencer may be aware. Angela Cain, our outgoing CEO, is moving to a different organization, and we're going through the search process now to bring in a new CEO. And then I think that new CEO will further closely with the board, and myself, in terms of what is next for CoreNet. Is it about additional asset classes? Is it deep diving into sort of topics that we haven't really been focused on previously? Is it to be more of a industry bellwether like ULI. So, there's a number of different things that the new CEO coming in willl need to make some decisions around. What is that strategic contender? So, I'm confident that we'll have the right person in place and focused on the right things because our industry is changing so quickly. We've got to be at the front end of it so that we're providing the content to our membership. But also allowing the right discourse between all the varying groups so that we're on the front foot of what needs to be said and discussed at the highest levels. 

Spencer Levy 
Great. Well, that was a great wrap up comment, Dave. And so, Zoe, I'm going to ask you the same. From your perspective, where are we going? Where's NAREIM going? How do we make it bigger, better and work more closely with the occupier right side. 

Zoe Hughes 
I appreciate that. In terms of NAREIM, as we look ahead, where we're actually really going to focus is to continue that deep dive into business and organizational strategies. You're actually seeing the real estate investment management industry about to face a transformation. I think the whole of commercial real estate is facing significant changes as we look ahead, data sustainability – there are massive structural changes. I think for investment management, what you are also going to see is the future of investment management change. What does it mean to be a manager? What type of managing you want to be? That is in relation to changing capital sources. You're seeing managers really look not just at the institutional investors, but the individual investors. That's really shaping how we look at the future. You're seeing that real focus on operations. Do I need to be vertically integrated? Do I need to think about development? Bring it in-house? I'm not just allocating out using third party developers. You're also thinking, the talent, the org. How do I think about that structure? So as NAREIM looks ahead, where we're really focused is helping those managers think through those changes because the future could involve significant consolidation within investment management. Where is my enterprise value? How do I create value as I look ahead? These are fundamental questions to the industry and that's where NAREIM is really focused is how do we help you understand what does that manager of the future look like. What does the investor of the future look like? Is it exceptionally large? Do you have to be a behemoth? Do you have to be small sharpshooters? Very nimble, but very small. Where is the industry going to play out? And that's where NAREIM is really going to focus is helping those managers understand, well, how do I shake my organization? How do I think about enterprise value? What does that manager of the future look like? What are the ways to drive value and growth? And that's where NAREIM is really going to focus as we look ahead is actually deeper and deeper dives into business and org strategies. This is not just about how do I raise capital, how do I do the deals? This is how you build a durable brand. How do I build that durable fee stream? How do I think about this? How do I retain and keep my talent for the next generation? How do I think about these things and build that business for the next five, ten, fifteen, twenty years? 

Spencer Levy 
On behalf of The Weekly Take, what a terrific discussion today about investors, about occupiers with two of the leaders of the entire industry, starting with Zoe Hughes, CEO of NAREIM. Zoe, terrific job and hope to see you again in person soon. 

Zoe Hughes 
Spencer, thank you so much for having me. It's been a real pleasure. 

Spencer Levy 
And then David Chang, the Chair of CoreNet Global Head of Corporate Real Estate Strategy, HSBC, joining us from Hong Kong. Dave, terrific job. 

David Chang 
Thanks so much, Spencer. Really enjoyed it. And, yeah, happy to do this again with Zoe at another time. 

Zoe Hughes 
Absolutely. 

Spencer Levy 
For more on the ins and outs of the industry today, please visit our website. CBRE.com/TheWeeklyTake. You can subscribe rate and review the show there or wherever you listen. You can follow us on LinkedIn as well. We also encourage you to reach out with feedback, to post questions or to suggest topics for the show. The best way to do that is by using the Talk to Us button on our homepage. We'll be back next week with a glimpse of the future. We'll start to dive into aspects of CBRE’s new report Shaping Tomorrow's Cities. We’ll feature a series of episodes about compelling places and forward thinking approaches that are, well, shaping the cities of tomorrow. So join us in Austin, Texas, a state capital that's been heralded as a “Developing Destination” and more in the weeks to come. For now, thanks for joining us. I'm Spencer Levy. Be smart. Be safe. Be well.